• saltesc@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Even if you aim to not have one, one will naturally form. Then you gotta enforce it, which ironically creates it, and an authority becomes elite through power or wealth, etc. Pick any social ism you like and that’s the natural outcome. Millions of years of nature can’t be suddenly undone by an idea or school of thought. The issue has always been us and ideas of a better society never factor in that it’s for humans that be all humany.

      • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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        3 months ago

        Hierarchies aren’t as hard-coded into humanity as you think it is. There are non-hierarchical societies still existing today, like immediate-return hunter-gatherers.

        The environment of a society forms their ideology. Not some vague notion of “human nature”. The question is: how do we create the conditions for a free society to form out of the current one?

        • saltesc@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          A reduction in population to return to numbers we thrived in, so that you are once again in a society of just 50 or so others working like a single organism, all with value and purpose. A pack, a tribe, a village, a community; whatever you want to call that instilled natural concept we do well in.

          But you get those numbers up just a bit, well we know what happens.

          • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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            3 months ago

            But you get those numbers up just a bit, well we know what happens.

            That’s the common narrative, but I don’t think that’s a necessity.

            • saltesc@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              If you could cull psychopathy, sociopathy,.and narcissism, while providing an environment that never triggers innate survival/competitive instincts, you’re probably onto a good start. Or, yeah, just keep the numbers.low and hope progress still occurs.

              • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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                3 months ago

                You don’t need to “cull” anything. A healthy societal network along with usufruct property relations should be stable against egotistical tendencies that would harm the group.

                • saltesc@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  You say that, but this conversation originated from acknowledging history.

                  So if you know a way to achieve this…

                  A healthy societal network along with usufruct property relations should be stable against egotistical tendencies that would harm the group.

                  …that doesn’t result in the same as all historical data so far, by all means. Just keep in mind, all failures so far started that way; most commonly underestimating/respecting human nature and how instilled and old it is.

                  • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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                    3 months ago

                    hat doesn’t result in the same as all historical data so far

                    I think you’re oversimplifying literally all of history. I think you understate humanity’s ability to make their own decisions and be active participants of forming their destiny, instead of relying on biologi(al determinism.

                    Just keep in mind, all failures so far started that way

                    All “failures” so far started off with way less human power over the circumstances they inhabited than we have now. Warmongers that looted other peoples wouldn’t have needed to do so with a more complete understanding of agriculture.