There’s more in 2 than 1 had. Most of it isn’t magic, like The Witcher or Mass Effect (though Dead Eye I’d say is magic), but there are a bunch of skills to learn, as well as weapons to purchase that give essentially Stat upgrades and unlocks to find. They’re more diegetic in RDR2 than the other games listed, but I’d say that’s better for an RPG, not worse.
They are not ARPGs though. That’s Diablo type games. They’re Action Adventure games, with RPG elements. I don’t think they should be classified with the RPGs because they have very different goals, even though they use similar mechanics.
You don’t need magic or even combat to be an RPG, you need the systems in the games to be dependent on stats/dice rolls. Disco Elysium, for example, is absolutely an RPG, and there’s no magic or combat in that game. One of the big giveaways that a game is an RPG is if there’s something you cannot do because your character’s abilities aren’t high enough. And not a combat move or something, but actual progression in some sense (dialog options, areas you can’t enter, bosses you can’t defeat, etc).
What makes Diablo an ARPG is that it’s an even mix of action and RPG. It’s unfair to call it an RPG because so much of the gameplay depends on player maneuvering, but it’s unfair to call it an action game because there’s so much depth to the skill tree. Other examples of ARPG are:
Ys - basically, Zelda with JRPG-style stats
Dark Souls - they have their own genre now, but I still think ARPG fits to a T
Hogwarts Legacy - lots of RPG elements, but gameplay is action first
I think Diablomight be different enough from core ARPGs to define its own subgenre: loot-based, ARPG dungeon crawler. ARPG is perhaps my favorite genre, but I honestly don’t like Diablo that much. My favorite game series is Ys, which I think strikes a perfect balance between JRPG elements and action; I find myself taking the “if I can’t beat the boss, I need to grind a bit” approach, but I can also just “git gud” if I really don’t want to grind out a couple levels (might double the length of the boss battle though). In a game like FF, you just can’t make up for being under-leveled after a certain point, whereas with action/action-adventure games, levels either don’t exist or don’t really impact progression (they may add cool abilities though).
So that’s why I think RDR isn’t an RPG. Even if it has abilities, they’re really not central to the game in the same way they are with other RPGs. You’re not going to lose a boss battle because you’re low on some stat, nor will you be barred from some content, you’ll just have to do more minigames to increase it. So it’s more of an immersive action-adventure, where you need to interact with the games systems to continue the adventure (eat, wear the right clothes, etc), and if you get it wrong, just sleep and continue. It’s similar to Zelda: Breath of the Wild, which is absolutely an action-adventure game, and it borrows some elements from the survival genre.
I know you don’t need magic to be an RPG. I was pointing out that the thing that makes the other two different from RDR is that they have magic, and not much else, so RDR is an RPG if they are. You will absolutely lose a boss fight if your stats are too low (and you aren’t skillful enough). Those stats are largely gun/equipment related though, not just stats on a stat block. The stats are largely diegetic, but they still exist.
Every modern game has stats though. They’re in everything, even things like Doom. I’m pretty sure no one is going to argue Doom is an RPG despite this though, so obviously stats are not the thing that makes something and RPG. They’re a key mechanic all RPGs must have, but they are not the factor that makes something and RPG. I would argue being able to define your character is the thing that makes an RPG, but I think the conversation is lost. I don’t think there can be a “proper” definition anymore with how it’s been applied to so many things.
Defining your character also isn’t core, since most JRPGs have a fixed character you play as.
But yeah, it’s a matter of “which genre is this closest to.” RDR is closest to an action-adventure game, because the core gameplay loop is on a mix of action (skill-based gunfights) and adventure (interaction with set pieces). RPGs tend to have a core gameplay loop based on character progression (leveling up, ability unlocks, etc) and interaction is generally with character abilities.
RDR’s abilities generally fall under the survival/management end of things, they’re interesting from an immersion aspect, but you’re not actively looking to level up some ability to solve some problem or unlock some content. In BotW, you also have “levels” (hearts and stamina containers), but increasing those aren’t really necessary to do anything, they just make the game a bit easier. Likewise with equipment, you don’t need the master sword, but it makes things a bit easier if you have it. The OG Zelda was a bit closer to an ARPG with equipment acting as “levels” (blue and later red rings to reduce damage, white and magical sword to increase attack, etc, each of which marks a stage of progression in the game), but it’s still an action-adventure because the game doesn’t revolve around that character progression.
So I’d call RDR2 an action-adventure with survival/RPG mechanics, because the core loop is around action and adventure.
There’s more in 2 than 1 had. Most of it isn’t magic, like The Witcher or Mass Effect (though Dead Eye I’d say is magic), but there are a bunch of skills to learn, as well as weapons to purchase that give essentially Stat upgrades and unlocks to find. They’re more diegetic in RDR2 than the other games listed, but I’d say that’s better for an RPG, not worse.
They are not ARPGs though. That’s Diablo type games. They’re Action Adventure games, with RPG elements. I don’t think they should be classified with the RPGs because they have very different goals, even though they use similar mechanics.
You don’t need magic or even combat to be an RPG, you need the systems in the games to be dependent on stats/dice rolls. Disco Elysium, for example, is absolutely an RPG, and there’s no magic or combat in that game. One of the big giveaways that a game is an RPG is if there’s something you cannot do because your character’s abilities aren’t high enough. And not a combat move or something, but actual progression in some sense (dialog options, areas you can’t enter, bosses you can’t defeat, etc).
What makes Diablo an ARPG is that it’s an even mix of action and RPG. It’s unfair to call it an RPG because so much of the gameplay depends on player maneuvering, but it’s unfair to call it an action game because there’s so much depth to the skill tree. Other examples of ARPG are:
I think Diablo might be different enough from core ARPGs to define its own subgenre: loot-based, ARPG dungeon crawler. ARPG is perhaps my favorite genre, but I honestly don’t like Diablo that much. My favorite game series is Ys, which I think strikes a perfect balance between JRPG elements and action; I find myself taking the “if I can’t beat the boss, I need to grind a bit” approach, but I can also just “git gud” if I really don’t want to grind out a couple levels (might double the length of the boss battle though). In a game like FF, you just can’t make up for being under-leveled after a certain point, whereas with action/action-adventure games, levels either don’t exist or don’t really impact progression (they may add cool abilities though).
So that’s why I think RDR isn’t an RPG. Even if it has abilities, they’re really not central to the game in the same way they are with other RPGs. You’re not going to lose a boss battle because you’re low on some stat, nor will you be barred from some content, you’ll just have to do more minigames to increase it. So it’s more of an immersive action-adventure, where you need to interact with the games systems to continue the adventure (eat, wear the right clothes, etc), and if you get it wrong, just sleep and continue. It’s similar to Zelda: Breath of the Wild, which is absolutely an action-adventure game, and it borrows some elements from the survival genre.
I know you don’t need magic to be an RPG. I was pointing out that the thing that makes the other two different from RDR is that they have magic, and not much else, so RDR is an RPG if they are. You will absolutely lose a boss fight if your stats are too low (and you aren’t skillful enough). Those stats are largely gun/equipment related though, not just stats on a stat block. The stats are largely diegetic, but they still exist.
Every modern game has stats though. They’re in everything, even things like Doom. I’m pretty sure no one is going to argue Doom is an RPG despite this though, so obviously stats are not the thing that makes something and RPG. They’re a key mechanic all RPGs must have, but they are not the factor that makes something and RPG. I would argue being able to define your character is the thing that makes an RPG, but I think the conversation is lost. I don’t think there can be a “proper” definition anymore with how it’s been applied to so many things.
Defining your character also isn’t core, since most JRPGs have a fixed character you play as.
But yeah, it’s a matter of “which genre is this closest to.” RDR is closest to an action-adventure game, because the core gameplay loop is on a mix of action (skill-based gunfights) and adventure (interaction with set pieces). RPGs tend to have a core gameplay loop based on character progression (leveling up, ability unlocks, etc) and interaction is generally with character abilities.
RDR’s abilities generally fall under the survival/management end of things, they’re interesting from an immersion aspect, but you’re not actively looking to level up some ability to solve some problem or unlock some content. In BotW, you also have “levels” (hearts and stamina containers), but increasing those aren’t really necessary to do anything, they just make the game a bit easier. Likewise with equipment, you don’t need the master sword, but it makes things a bit easier if you have it. The OG Zelda was a bit closer to an ARPG with equipment acting as “levels” (blue and later red rings to reduce damage, white and magical sword to increase attack, etc, each of which marks a stage of progression in the game), but it’s still an action-adventure because the game doesn’t revolve around that character progression.
So I’d call RDR2 an action-adventure with survival/RPG mechanics, because the core loop is around action and adventure.