Well, if Biden and Trump are both fascists, I think many people would still argue that Biden is the less dangerous fascist. It really doesn’t change their main reason for voting for him, and that is that he is the least bad option.
I’ve said for years now that the Democrats and the Republicans are like a good cop, bad cop team. They both might be on the same side, and they both might be against you, but I think it’s understandable why people would prefer to deal with the good cop. It’s a harm reduction measure. The bad cop will almost certainly do more harm than the good cop.
Biden is the less dangerous fascist.
For whom?
It’s a harm reduction measure.
No it isn’t. That’s the whole point of the “good cop/bad cop” routine - it’s to get you to “co-operate.”
For whom?
I think for the majority of people.
That’s the whole point of the “good cop/bad cop” routine - it’s to get you to “co-operate.”
Yes, I know. Unlike most people who are subjected to the good cop, bad cop technique, we are allowed to vote for one or the other. I think it makes sense why most people would want to vote for the good cop.
I think for the majority of people.
So… basically white liberals that wants everything to continue as normal as long as the political establishment remains quiet about it?
we are allowed to vote for one or the other.
How does that change anything?
I think it makes sense why most people would want to vote for the good cop.
It’s one thing to not realize it’s a “good cop/bad cop” routine - it’s quite another to realize what it is and then still fall for it by pretending that the (supposed) “good cop” isn’t a cop.
So… basically white liberals that wants everything to continue as normal as long as the political establishment remains quiet about it?
Yes, white liberals. Also others. Like I said, I think the majority of people.
How does that change anything?
It doesn’t. It’s not meant to. It’s not a revolutionary action, it’s a harm reduction measure, like I said.
It’s one thing to not realize it’s a “good cop/bad cop” routine - it’s quite another to realize what it is and then still fall for it by pretending that the (supposed) “good cop” isn’t a cop.
I’m not falling for anything or pretending. I know I’m being subjected to the good cop, bad cop routine, I know the good cop is a cop, I know he is not my friend, I know he is against me. I have been given very few options and I’m choosing the least bad.
Yes, white liberals.
What white liberals say is “good” for them is diametrically opposed to what is good for everybody else. I don’t think Palestinians (and the majority of the world’s people whose sympathy has now decisively swung their way) believe that a “quieter” genocide (which is what white liberals want) would be “good” for them, for instance.
it’s a harm reduction measure,
There’s a fine line between harm reduction and appeasement.
I have been given very few options
Just a suggestion… but perhaps it’s time you start to think critically about the people and institutions “giving” you these (so-called) “options?”
It might not sound like much - but everything has to start somewhere.
I don’t think Palestinians…believe that a “quieter” genocide…would be “good” for them, for instance.
What makes you think a Trump presidency would be better for Palestinians?
…perhaps it’s time you start to think critically about the people and institutions “giving” you these (so-called) “options?”
I have thought critically about it. Was thinking critically about these things supposed to reveal some new avenue to me that I hadn’t considered?
What makes you think a Trump presidency would be better for Palestinians?
No, it will be pretty much exactly the same - caveat being that Trump is politically incompetent at this game, which could (and that’s a pretty risky “could”) prove better for the Palestinian resistance in the long run. But that is neither here nor there and perfectly impossible to predict - the only thing we can predict is an escalation of US foreign policy (for Israel, of course), and that will remain the exact same whether under Trump or Biden.
Of course… if Biden (somehow) manages to win in November white liberals in the US will conveniently forget about Gaza - something that won’t happen under Trump.
I have thought critically about it.
So have you figured out why (so-called) “liberal democracy” only manages to be about as “democratic” as “social darwinism” is Darwinist?
What do you want him to do? Insight a revolution? Voting for the bad, but marginally less bad option is better than nothing.
Voting for the bad, but marginally less bad option
“Lesser evilism” is hitting rock bottom, Clyde - and so is liberalism itself. That is perfectly apparent - liberals refusing to believe it is irrelevant. “Voting harder” will not stop that, and the chances of voting even slowing it down was a decent argument in 2020, but not after liberalism showed the entire planet it’s true hand in a little place called Gaza.
Insight a revolution?
Do you have the power or the know-how to do that, perhaps? No? Then I guess the answer is no, isn’t it?
I will tell you what I tell every liberal that demands convenient solutions as soon as an actual leftist points out the gigantic gaping holes in the liberal world-view - start by doing the work of actually understanding how you got into this mess in the first place.
It’s not much, but it’s a start. And it’s a shit-ton more politically pro-active than simply voting for some guy in an expensive suit.
For whom?
better question, for who would Trump be less dangerous?
and yes, that’s the question, Trump or Biden, there is no 3ed option in America
better question, for who would Trump be less dangerous?
The vast majority of people on the planet, actually. Trump is incompetent at US foreign policy - ie, he is incompetent at imperialism. The US position in the middle-east, for instance, weakened dramatically under Trump. This is a good thing, overall.
there is no 3ed option in America
So I take it you are willing to admit that you don’t exist in a democratic society?
ah, I see where your misconceptions lie, you live in lala land, you don’t actually care, you have heard tankie shit and decided to chug until the bottle is empty, you claim trump is bad at imperialism because what? he was friends with the great people’s republic of North Korea? no, looking at trumps track records he was much more violent and brutal in his foreign policy, he aided and supported the rise of governments that make American imperialism seem benign by comparison.
and no, while there are only 2 realistic options in the American political race for president, there are a ton of ways you could actually get involved to make a difference.
then again, please enlighten me as to the post Stalinist democracies in the red fascist nations that you tankies all can’t stop boot licking for.
Just admit that you are perfectly fine with the US slaughtering brown people, liberal - as long as the blood doesn’t stain the white picket fences in your pristine suburbs.
Then you don’t have to go around accusing people using terms you don’t know the meaning of, okay?
Let me just grab the magic wand of making the majority of American voters not support Israel real quick, oh wait, that doesn’t exist now does it. along with the magic spell of remove the fascist ethno-theocrats from the Israeli government, oh wait, that ALSO doesn’t exist.
Fact is, no matter what you, or I vote, it’s not going to stop the IDF from slaughtering civilians in Gaza, but one is just tacitly accepting it, the other is demanding the IDF “finish them”.
And yes, I know what tankies are, and I know what tankie talking point sound like (because it would literally kill you to use non-tankie vernacular), I also know that like all tankies out there, you have fundamentally blinded yourself to the actions of despotic brutal dictators because you have bought into the idea that the USA is the worlds sole antagonist, the only nation with agency (for some reason) and that anything bad you hear/see about China and Russia must be anti-communist imperialist propaganda, a stance only made worse by the fact that both china and Russia are currently engaging in a literal Colonial conquest of Africa/Middle East
but one is just tacitly accepting it,
That’s really the only thing you liberals are politically competent at, aren’t you?
I have to say… you’re the first liberal on here that has actually had the backbone to admit it - I guess that’s… something.
And yes, I know what tankies are
No you don’t, liberal. The fact that you cannot even tell the difference between an anarchist and a Marxist-Lenninist tells me that your competence in this area is pretty much at Average Liberal Standard.
And I trust that I don’t have to explain to you how low a bar that actually is?
Powerful words offering no solution, or even recommendation.
no solution
It’s not their responsibility to provide you with an easy solution. If you want consultants, hire some.
It is, in fact, the advocates responsibility to advocate for what they think is better.
Sooo - which part of…
It’s not their responsibility to provide you with an easy solution. If you want consultants, hire some.
…didn’t you understand the first time around, liberal?
Repeating an incorrect statement doesn’t suddenly make it correct, dipshit.
I’ll be posting the correct statement until it penetrates straight through that fuzzy mist of liberal propaganda you insist on burdening yourself with, Clyde. So here it goes again…
It’s not their responsibility to provide you with an easy solution. If you want consultants, hire some.
Get it now?
Yeah, we are already there. We’ve been there for over 40 years. It’s just super shitty that this rhetoric is being pushed this close to a general election and that it benefits the most fascist candidate available.
Stop it. Get some help.
So don’t vote for Biden. Trump gets elected. Then what’s the next step? How can I keep my conscience spotless?
Then what’s the next step?
So if Trump gets elected it’s somebody else’s responsibility to tell you what “the plan” is because the Dems sold you a rotten one?
I’m not sure what this means.
Let me rephrase then - your political establishment has proven that it will happily subject you to the exact same fascist policies that it has been practising in the outside world for a very long time now… and you expect people who point this out to you to also provide you with a solution to this state of affairs?
No? All I’m seeing are people telling me both parties are the same, when they clearly are not. You don’t just cede to outright fascism just because.
All I’m seeing are people telling me both parties are the same,
That’s not exactly true… they serve the same status quo - and they wouldn’t be able to do that very effectively if they were exactly the same.
You don’t just cede to outright fascism just because.
Both parties might not exactly be the same… but both of them are perfectly fine with fascism. After all… both parties have happily funded, supported and enabled Israel’s (a fascist state) genocide since the '70s - and that’s just the one US-sponsored colonialist bloodbath the media is actually telling you about.
There’s a saying amongst leftists - fascism is just colonialism coming home to roost. And guess what… you have decades’ worth of colonialism inbound. Somehow, I don’t think a cross on a ballot is going to cut it.
Of course American power furthers American power. The goal should be to shift the Overton window left. Leftists would rather sit on their hands and watch it all burn. Why not run for office? Why not try outreach to working people or at-risk communities? Nah, much easier to just complain on social media.
Of course American power furthers American power.
If you’re just fine and dandy with US imperialism I don’t see why you should have a problem with fascism, then.
Why not run for office?
And become a part of the problem? How will that solve anything?
Why not try outreach to working people or at-risk communities?
Oh… you mean this?
Gee… I wonder why the left never does anything like that - it’s a complete mystery, I tell you.
You’re the morons trying to argue that Biden is worse. You tell us.
argue that Biden is worse.
So, again… if Trump gets elected it’s somebody else’s responsibility to tell you what “the plan” is because the Dems sold you a rotten one?
You’re the one doing advocacy here, let’s see what you’ve got
I’m advocating for you to start using your goddamn brain… but apparently, that’s an activity liberals don’t have much practice in.
If participating in formal political processes only allows for two options - fascism deferred for four years or fascism now (since that is, by your own argument, the situation you are in) it might be time to start considering not-so-formal political processes, might it not?
Right, and in the mean time, it sure sounds like not having fascism now is the preferable option there.
And that’s your only plan? Kicking the fascism can four years down the road?
Maybe you haven’t noticed… but four years of Dem regime has only made the fascists stronger. What do you think is going to happen in the next four years if Biden or Harris (somehow) manages a win in November?
Will we be having the exact same conversations then? Or will you have realized by then that the formal political establishment has no interest in stopping the fascists?
Didn’t know this was the Israeli election forum.
