I disagree. Iām far from an expert on Euromaidan, but from what I gathered, the perspective of the Donbas is widely ignored by most western media. I only managed to find articles in German, so youāll have to excuse me, but if youāre interested, youāll probably find a way to translate those:
Iām not ignoring the counter-protests in the east. To my knowledge most of the ones that happened during Euromaidan either had people paid to āprotestā or they could barely get people together to protest. Most of the eastern protests happened after Euromaidan and considering how quickly Russia jumped into those regions I wouldnāt be surprised if they were a front to destabilize those regions.
Those articles suggest that the Euromaidan was not only a āpro EUā thing, but can be understood as an attempt of ultranationalist Ukrainians to infiltrate the Ukrainian government. The same journalist said in an interview (sorry, in German as well) that she interviewed pro Maidan activists in 2014 and that she canāt imagine that the rebellion was this coordinated without the possibility of outside forces supplying training and resources to the combatants.
Iām also not ignoring the influence of nationalists and ultranationalists in Euromaidan, however it doesnāt change the nature of the protest because it started as protest against not signing the EU deal and it ended with a pro-EU government (and not an ultranationalist government). The ultranationalists actually started losing popularity the moment Euromaidan ended and over the years theyāve been slowly been rooted out from where-ever they dug into.
Sorry if I failed to make my point clear. My point isnāt that Putin isnāt an autocrat. My point is that Putin is acting as a stateās sovereign. Heās not acting out of his private interest, but out of the interest of a nation.
When you have an autocratic leader the state becomes an extension of their will. They can use the state for the interest of the nation or they can use the state for their own interests. I donāt consider myself so well versed in Putinomics to know when Putin is acting out of self-interest and when Putin is acting in the interest of the Russian nation. If you can somehow tell the difference, good for you. I personally donāt see how the war is in the interest of Russia (the nation). Sending your young people into the meat grinder is not in the interest of the nation (Ukranians on the front will tell you that Russia just keeps sending troops wave after wave straight into machinegun fire). Not retrieving your wounded is not in the interest of the nation. People struggling to put food on the table is not in the interest of the nation. I could keep going on about things that donāt affect the average Russian but I think Iāve made my point how this war is by no means in the interest of the nation, Russian people are also suffering because of this senseless war that Putin could end at any moment.
Yeah, the independence of the Ukrainian state. I donāt think that the interests of the Ukrainian state align with the Ukrainian people. Especially considering that the latter are currently dying in the name of the former. And if the former gets its āindependenceā, it will have done so at an incredible cost of human lives. And I doubt that all the debt from military aid (those arenāt āpresentsā from the west) will lead to fulfilling lives for Ukraineās population in the future.
Yes, the ābad guysā are bad. But the āgood guysā donāt act out of the kindness of their hearts, either.
A completely irrelevant point considering this discussion started with the statement that this war wouldnāt even happen if not for Russia. People wouldnāt be losing their lives if Russia never invaded in the first place. Military aid wouldnāt be necessary because there would be nobody to defend from. It all comes down to the fact that none of this would have happened if Russia hadnāt started it.
Their āpawn-nessā started way before 2022, when NATO did their sable-rattling in Ukraine. They canāt afford a neutral position. Just like Taiwan canāt and Vietnam or Cuba couldnāt.
Iāve been giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but this is where Iām just going to call you a Russian propagandist because youāre either deliberately or ignorantly presenting Russian talking points. There is no NATO saber-rattling. NATO does not expand unless the country in question wants NATO to expand. Finland and Sweden are prime examples. NATO wouldāve loved for those 2 countries to join, especially during the cold war. Bases literally in striking distance from Leningrad and Moscow? If it was up to NATO thatās 100% expansion. But it wasnāt. Finland had Finlandization and Sweden didnāt join out of solidarity for Finland. Even after the cold war Finland and Sweden didnāt want to join NATO until Russia invaded Ukraine.
As for Ukraine. You can look up the polls, Ukraine didnāt want to join NATO until Russia annexed Crimea, then within a matter of months the sentiment went from āI donāt want to join NATOā to āI want to join NATOā.
And for NATO itself, NATO was probably on the verge of dissolution before the Russian invasion. When Trump started talking about stepping out of NATO other countries started questioning if NATO is even necessary anymore. Russian invasion is what has reinvigorated NATO. As with the last two points, it always ends up coming back to Russia being a fucking shithead to its neighbors.
And if we get back to 2014, when all of this started, it didnāt start because Ukraine wanted to join NATO. It started because Ukraine wanted to join the EU. So NATO isnāt even the reason this is happening.
Now, feel free to take your Russian talking points and fuck off.
To my knowledge most of the ones that happened during Euromaidan either had people paid to āprotestā or they could barely get people together to protest.
Sorry, that just reeks of propaganda to me. Donezk has a distinct national identity from before it was declared to be a part of Ukraine. Additionally, the region came under economic pressure through the talks between Kiew and Europe, which would explain why there would be protests erupting in 2014. Stating that these protestors were paid is a highly spuriops claim without sources.
The ultranationalists actually started losing popularity the moment Euromaidan ended and over the years theyāve been slowly been rooted out from where-ever they dug into.
When was that supposed to happen? Back in 2022, Selensky spoke at the Greek parliament, accompanied by the Azov battalion. Since you accuse me of spouting propaganda: this claim seems like propaganda to me, as well.
I personally donāt see how the war is in the interest of Russia (the nation).
Russia wants to assert its status as a super power in a world where the US donāt allow for other super powers beside them. I thought it was well established that Russia has imperialistic interests, wasnāt it?
(Ukranians on the front will tell you that Russia just keeps sending troops wave after wave straight into machinegun fire).
Ignoring the fact that what youāre going to hear from Ukrainian soldiers will be heavily filtered by Ukraineās department of defense: AFAIK, Thatās not (or no longer) Russiaās strategy. Theyāre currently very slow and methodical in kettling in their military targets. Ukraine is currently the one who puts their soldiers in the meat grinder by not evacuating Russiaās targets after they are considered to be lost.
Not retrieving your wounded is not in the interest of the nation. People struggling to put food on the table is not in the interest of the nation.
Yeah, thatās a good deterrent for war. So why do you think the war is still going? Because Putin is evil? I just donāt buy that childish logic which goes against any serious political analysis of anything.
BTW: Every state considers it justified to send outsits population into a war to secure its status as a sovereign. To a state thatās currently at war, human lives are nothing but a kind of resource to be used to reduce the enemyās (human) resource. Thatās what a war is. No matter if youāre Putin, Selensky or Wilhelm II.
A completely irrelevant point considering this discussion started with the statement that this war wouldnāt even happen if not for Russia.
Maybe, if you consider my point on the Ukrainian people (that should only give you context why Iām skeptical of Selensky). But the fact that the āgood guysā are no angels definetly has something to do why āPutin just wonāt stopā.
Iāve been giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but this is where Iām just going to call you a Russian propagandist because youāre either deliberately or ignorantly presenting Russian talking points.
Ukraine has beefed up their military substantially between 2014 and 2020. That didnāt happen without the westās help. And NATO is no stranger in involving itself outside its stated goals as a ādefense treatyā (See: Kosovo war). I also donāt get how Swedenās and Finlandās joining of NATO has anything to to with whether or not NATO provoked Russia. It is however a great example how NATO is used as an imperialist tool by its members, when you look at what Erdogan got out of Sweden joining NATO.
Youāre accusing me of repeating Russiaās propaganda, Iām accusing you of repeating NATOās propaganda. But at least I know that you shouldnāt trust either imperialist.
Sorry, that just reeks of propaganda to me. Donezk has a distinct national identity from before it was declared to be a part of Ukraine. Additionally, the region came under economic pressure through the talks between Kiew and Europe, which would explain why there would be protests erupting in 2014. Stating that these protestors were paid is a highly spuriops claim without sources.
When was that supposed to happen? Back in 2022, Selensky spoke at the Greek parliament, accompanied by the Azov battalion. Since you accuse me of spouting propaganda: this claim seems like propaganda to me, as well.
Another Russian talking point. Feel free to show me how Azov was still an ultranationalist entity in 2022.
Russia wants to assert its status as a super power in a world where the US donāt allow for other super powers beside them. I thought it was well established that Russia has imperialistic interests, wasnāt it?
I guess youāre capable of telling the difference between Russiaās and Putins imperialistic interest, right? Iām going to stick with itās Putins imperialistic interest, not Russian. And heās doing a fabulous job by showing how his army was incapable of doing large scale invasions and his high tech arsenal canāt beat decades old western tech, all an excellent showing how the only super power Russia has is its insane amount people they can throw in the grinder.
Ignoring the fact that what youāre going to hear from Ukrainian soldiers will be heavily filtered by Ukraineās department of defense: AFAIK, Thatās not (or no longer) Russiaās strategy. Theyāre currently very slow and methodical in kettling in their military targets. Ukraine is currently the one who puts their soldiers in the meat grinder by not evacuating Russiaās targets after they are considered to be lost.
Iām not ignoring that fact. I know that anything making Ukraine look bad wonāt come through the Ukrainian filter. I have no reason to think theyād filter Russia doing something incredibly stupid. Also source on Russia no longer putting their soldiers in the meat grinder (I guess technically theyāre not, theyāre now throwing Koreans into the grinder) and source Ukraine putting their soldiers in the meat grinder?
Yeah, thatās a good deterrent for war. So why do you think the war is still going? Because Putin is evil? I just donāt buy that childish logic which goes against any serious political analysis of anything.
So why is the war still going on?
BTW: Every state considers it justified to send outsits population into a war to secure its status as a sovereign.
Okay, thatās justification for Ukraine to send its people into war considering their sovereignty is in danger. Whats the justification for Russia considering Ukraine isnāt interest in taking over Russia?
Maybe, if you consider my point on the Ukrainian people (that should only give you context why Iām skeptical of Selensky). But the fact that the āgood guysā are no angels definetly has something to do why āPutin just wonāt stopā.
You just justified Ukraine using its people defending the sovereignty of Ukraine so your point about the Ukrainian people is moot because they wouldnāt be needed to throw their lives away if there wasnāt a war.
Ukraine has beefed up their military substantially between 2014 and 2020. That didnāt happen without the westās help.
Which ONCE AGAIN wouldnāt have been necessary if not for Russian meddling. For fuck sake how many times do I need to repeat this same point over and over and over.
And NATO is no stranger in involving itself outside its stated goals as a ādefense treatyā (See: Kosovo war).
And Kosovo was bullshit thing to use NATO for.
I also donāt get how Swedenās and Finlandās joining of NATO has anything to to with whether or not NATO provoked Russia.
That is an example of NATO not expanding when NATO wants to expand, which is usually the kind of bullshit argument Russian trolls make when they talk about NATO saber-rattling.
It is however a great example how NATO is used as an imperialist tool by its members, when you look at what Erdogan got out of Sweden joining NATO.
Example of imperialism? The great imperialist nation of Turkey? Thatās not an example of NATO being used as imperialist tool. Do you even know what imperialism means? fuck it, Iām not commenting more on that, thatās just beyond my capacity to handle stupidity.
Youāre accusing me of repeating Russiaās propaganda, Iām accusing you of repeating NATOās propaganda. But at least I know that you shouldnāt trust either imperialist.
Kinda a weird accusation considering you have literally given zero examples of me using NATO propaganda, unless you think everything I say is NATO propaganda. Also weird to claim you know to not trust either imperialistic entity but literally present Russian propaganda as your argument.
Iām not ignoring the counter-protests in the east. To my knowledge most of the ones that happened during Euromaidan either had people paid to āprotestā or they could barely get people together to protest. Most of the eastern protests happened after Euromaidan and considering how quickly Russia jumped into those regions I wouldnāt be surprised if they were a front to destabilize those regions.
Iām also not ignoring the influence of nationalists and ultranationalists in Euromaidan, however it doesnāt change the nature of the protest because it started as protest against not signing the EU deal and it ended with a pro-EU government (and not an ultranationalist government). The ultranationalists actually started losing popularity the moment Euromaidan ended and over the years theyāve been slowly been rooted out from where-ever they dug into.
When you have an autocratic leader the state becomes an extension of their will. They can use the state for the interest of the nation or they can use the state for their own interests. I donāt consider myself so well versed in Putinomics to know when Putin is acting out of self-interest and when Putin is acting in the interest of the Russian nation. If you can somehow tell the difference, good for you. I personally donāt see how the war is in the interest of Russia (the nation). Sending your young people into the meat grinder is not in the interest of the nation (Ukranians on the front will tell you that Russia just keeps sending troops wave after wave straight into machinegun fire). Not retrieving your wounded is not in the interest of the nation. People struggling to put food on the table is not in the interest of the nation. I could keep going on about things that donāt affect the average Russian but I think Iāve made my point how this war is by no means in the interest of the nation, Russian people are also suffering because of this senseless war that Putin could end at any moment.
A completely irrelevant point considering this discussion started with the statement that this war wouldnāt even happen if not for Russia. People wouldnāt be losing their lives if Russia never invaded in the first place. Military aid wouldnāt be necessary because there would be nobody to defend from. It all comes down to the fact that none of this would have happened if Russia hadnāt started it.
Iāve been giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but this is where Iām just going to call you a Russian propagandist because youāre either deliberately or ignorantly presenting Russian talking points. There is no NATO saber-rattling. NATO does not expand unless the country in question wants NATO to expand. Finland and Sweden are prime examples. NATO wouldāve loved for those 2 countries to join, especially during the cold war. Bases literally in striking distance from Leningrad and Moscow? If it was up to NATO thatās 100% expansion. But it wasnāt. Finland had Finlandization and Sweden didnāt join out of solidarity for Finland. Even after the cold war Finland and Sweden didnāt want to join NATO until Russia invaded Ukraine.
As for Ukraine. You can look up the polls, Ukraine didnāt want to join NATO until Russia annexed Crimea, then within a matter of months the sentiment went from āI donāt want to join NATOā to āI want to join NATOā.
And for NATO itself, NATO was probably on the verge of dissolution before the Russian invasion. When Trump started talking about stepping out of NATO other countries started questioning if NATO is even necessary anymore. Russian invasion is what has reinvigorated NATO. As with the last two points, it always ends up coming back to Russia being a fucking shithead to its neighbors.
And if we get back to 2014, when all of this started, it didnāt start because Ukraine wanted to join NATO. It started because Ukraine wanted to join the EU. So NATO isnāt even the reason this is happening.
Now, feel free to take your Russian talking points and fuck off.
Sorry, that just reeks of propaganda to me. Donezk has a distinct national identity from before it was declared to be a part of Ukraine. Additionally, the region came under economic pressure through the talks between Kiew and Europe, which would explain why there would be protests erupting in 2014. Stating that these protestors were paid is a highly spuriops claim without sources.
When was that supposed to happen? Back in 2022, Selensky spoke at the Greek parliament, accompanied by the Azov battalion. Since you accuse me of spouting propaganda: this claim seems like propaganda to me, as well.
Russia wants to assert its status as a super power in a world where the US donāt allow for other super powers beside them. I thought it was well established that Russia has imperialistic interests, wasnāt it?
Ignoring the fact that what youāre going to hear from Ukrainian soldiers will be heavily filtered by Ukraineās department of defense: AFAIK, Thatās not (or no longer) Russiaās strategy. Theyāre currently very slow and methodical in kettling in their military targets. Ukraine is currently the one who puts their soldiers in the meat grinder by not evacuating Russiaās targets after they are considered to be lost.
Yeah, thatās a good deterrent for war. So why do you think the war is still going? Because Putin is evil? I just donāt buy that childish logic which goes against any serious political analysis of anything.
BTW: Every state considers it justified to send outsits population into a war to secure its status as a sovereign. To a state thatās currently at war, human lives are nothing but a kind of resource to be used to reduce the enemyās (human) resource. Thatās what a war is. No matter if youāre Putin, Selensky or Wilhelm II.
Maybe, if you consider my point on the Ukrainian people (that should only give you context why Iām skeptical of Selensky). But the fact that the āgood guysā are no angels definetly has something to do why āPutin just wonāt stopā.
Ukraine has beefed up their military substantially between 2014 and 2020. That didnāt happen without the westās help. And NATO is no stranger in involving itself outside its stated goals as a ādefense treatyā (See: Kosovo war). I also donāt get how Swedenās and Finlandās joining of NATO has anything to to with whether or not NATO provoked Russia. It is however a great example how NATO is used as an imperialist tool by its members, when you look at what Erdogan got out of Sweden joining NATO.
Youāre accusing me of repeating Russiaās propaganda, Iām accusing you of repeating NATOās propaganda. But at least I know that you shouldnāt trust either imperialist.
This is the bare minimum Iām going to do. You can find references to protesters being paid on the wiki page
Another Russian talking point. Feel free to show me how Azov was still an ultranationalist entity in 2022.
I guess youāre capable of telling the difference between Russiaās and Putins imperialistic interest, right? Iām going to stick with itās Putins imperialistic interest, not Russian. And heās doing a fabulous job by showing how his army was incapable of doing large scale invasions and his high tech arsenal canāt beat decades old western tech, all an excellent showing how the only super power Russia has is its insane amount people they can throw in the grinder.
Iām not ignoring that fact. I know that anything making Ukraine look bad wonāt come through the Ukrainian filter. I have no reason to think theyād filter Russia doing something incredibly stupid. Also source on Russia no longer putting their soldiers in the meat grinder (I guess technically theyāre not, theyāre now throwing Koreans into the grinder) and source Ukraine putting their soldiers in the meat grinder?
So why is the war still going on?
Okay, thatās justification for Ukraine to send its people into war considering their sovereignty is in danger. Whats the justification for Russia considering Ukraine isnāt interest in taking over Russia?
You just justified Ukraine using its people defending the sovereignty of Ukraine so your point about the Ukrainian people is moot because they wouldnāt be needed to throw their lives away if there wasnāt a war.
Which ONCE AGAIN wouldnāt have been necessary if not for Russian meddling. For fuck sake how many times do I need to repeat this same point over and over and over.
And Kosovo was bullshit thing to use NATO for.
That is an example of NATO not expanding when NATO wants to expand, which is usually the kind of bullshit argument Russian trolls make when they talk about NATO saber-rattling.
Example of imperialism? The great imperialist nation of Turkey? Thatās not an example of NATO being used as imperialist tool. Do you even know what imperialism means? fuck it, Iām not commenting more on that, thatās just beyond my capacity to handle stupidity.
Kinda a weird accusation considering you have literally given zero examples of me using NATO propaganda, unless you think everything I say is NATO propaganda. Also weird to claim you know to not trust either imperialistic entity but literally present Russian propaganda as your argument.