I know how tipping works, thank you. If Iām not being tipped for waiting a table, I still get paid hourly wages, meaning I get money for that table or any other I wait during my work hours. If I hadnāt taken that table, I would still make hourly wages. I canāt believe you donāt know that. Youāre not just acting obtuse, are you?
Not tipping wastes nobodyās time. Servers are paid by the hour. Hours are time. Servers do not get to leave earlier when they receive tips. Do you think restaurant owners waste serversā time by underpaying them? Be honest.
You know what turning something around on someone means. If youāre unsure what happened, please make use of the scrolling up technology and use your eyes and brain to read what it says there. You already agreed that tipping doesnāt end tipping culture, so your act doesnāt really make sense now.
I donāt employ servers, so it is in no way my responsibility to pay their wages. Iām responsible for paying for the food and service that I receive. The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really. Itās fine if youāre OK with picking up someoneās employerās tab, I wonāt. Just donāt confuse whoās exploiting who just because you so desperately want to shift the blame away from the restaurant owner. Why are you even doing that? Youāre in a situation where one guy says āhey, youāre going to work for me full time but Iām only paying you a fraction even though I receive the full labour. If youāre lucky, my customers donate some of their money to your living expenses. Most do, the others are huge assholes, right?ā and you go āright, thatās very fair and sensible. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Mr Moneybags! Oh, the system surely sucks but apart from shaming customers into shelling out for what you systematically withhold, thereās just nothing that could be done :(ā Does your family own a restaurant or something?
What part of āI havenāt frequented tipped restaurants in 20 yearsā did you not understand? Obviously I have an opinion on tipping, how are you having trouble understanding that I would voice it in a public forum when that is the topic? You made a shitty point and I commented on it, why would not going to tipped restaurants keep me from doing that, exactly? Your logic is fucked up all around.
If Iām not being tipped for waiting a table, I still get paid hourly wages, meaning I get money for that table or any other I wait during my work hours.
The hourly rate for most servers is less than minimum wage, which is already too low to make a living off of. Like I said, I donāt think you know how this works. You can legally pay a server $2.13 an hour in most states so long as what ever tips they make the rest of the day average to $7.25 an hour.
Do you think restaurant owners waste serversā time by underpaying them?
I think they take advantage of their labour, just as people like yourself do.
You already agreed that tipping doesnāt end tipping culture, so your act doesnāt really make sense now.
Act? My claim is that if you donāt like tipping, donāt go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living.
I donāt employ servers, so it is in no way my responsibility to pay their wages. Iām responsible for paying for the food and service that I receive. The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really.
Lol, itās also very simple to see that the system we currently utilize is inadequate and is geared towards maximizing profits to the owner, and that is not the fault of the server who is just trying to make a living.
Itās fine if youāre OK with picking up someoneās employerās tab, I wonāt. Just donāt confuse whoās exploiting who just because you so desperately want to shift the blame away from the restaurant owner.
I donāt tip because Iām fine with āpicking up the owners tabā. I tip because I know that the only person who loses in the situation is the worker. The owner doesnāt care if you tip or donāt tip, he gets his money either way. Iām not shifting the blame from the owner, they are of course exploiting the worker. However, so are you if someone is working in the expectation of compensation and then receives none. Iām guessing you donāt tell the waiter you donāt believe in tipping before the serviceā¦?
the system surely sucks but apart from shaming customers into shelling out for what you systematically withhold, thereās just nothing that could be done :(" Does your family own a restaurant or something?
Or ā¦you could go to the many restaurants that donāt rely on tips to pay their workers. That is the only way to actually fight tipping culture, by rewarding your patronage to an owner who utilizes a labour system you believer in.
An no, my family doesnāt own a restaurant. I used to work as a chef while I worked my way through school, and I know how feast or famine things can be for people working up front. Iāve known people who couldnāt make rent because they had a bad day. I have basic empathy for my fellow workers.
āI havenāt frequented tipped restaurants in 20 yearsā
You said you havenāt participated in tipping culture for 20 years, based on your other shitty opinions, I figured that could mean you just havenāt tipped for 20 years. Also, I donāt really think someone who defends stiffing wait staff so vehemently online would really have a problem with taking advantage of their labour in real life and lying about it on the web.
To be honest you just seem like a person incapable of empathy, like some sort of libertarian sleezball. Anyways, have fun being a miserable ass.
You can legally pay a server $2.13 an hour in most states so long as what ever tips they make the rest of the day average to $7.25 an hour.
You seem to be either confused or unable to stay on topic. My point was that servers are paid by the hour which you confirm by stating the exact rates. What is your point? That they donāt get paid a lot? Iām aware, itās why I donāt go to these places. Is this supposed to somehow guilt me into wanting to tip? Itās not my responsibility to subsidize wages, I donāt employ anyone so I donāt pay wages and Iām not going to pay indirect wages either. If a server doesnāt make enough money, thatās between them and their employer like in literally (and I mean literally, not figuratively) every other industry. Itās not different just because you carry plates. In fact, if you think carrying plates somehow makes the customer responsible for subsidizing wages, why not just cut out the middle man? Why donāt I come up to you on the street saying āhey, can you give me money, please? My employer doesnāt pay me enough and youād be a huge asshole if you didnāt give me money.ā? You would rightfully tell me to fuck off. Why is it different if I brought you food first? Because you have been duped into thinking it is by greedy restaurant owners who exploited the goodwill of customers and the labour of their staff. āOh, itās just the system, nothing we can do! We have to conform to the system because the owners donāt care!ā is exactly what greedy restaurants owners are hoping youāll say and you perpetuate this system by repeating it over and over.
I think they take advantage of their labour, just as people like yourself do.
Please explain how Iām taking advantage of anyone by going to a restaurant and paying for the food and service I receive. Then, please explain why Iām not taking advantage of anyone by going to McDonaldās and paying for the food and service I receive. Thirdly, please explain how Iām taking advantage of anyone by not having frequented a tipped restaurant in the last 20 year, which I already told you, twice. In your red-faced anger over me not holding the bag for restaurant owners you seem to forget what has already been discussed.
Act?
Yes, the obtuse act youāre putting on. You know servers are paid by the hour, yet ask questions that imply you donāt. You know what āturning something around on someoneā means, yet you pretend you donāt understand what happened. Not like I didnāt explain that to you in my last comment which you read and understood. For some reason youāre still keeping up the act.
My claim is that if you donāt like tipping, donāt go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living.
Thatās not a claim, itās a demand. And youāve made it numerous times already and every time I told you that my point is ātipping also doesnāt stop tipping cultureā. I already donāt go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living. You know that and still you repeat your āclaimā. Do you not understand what Iām telling you? Iāll spell it out for you: Yes, donāt go to restaurants underpaying their staff. Also, donāt pretend you want to stop tipping culture when you actively perpetuate it. I know youāre not stupid and understand perfectly well what Iām telling you. Please act accordingly.
The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really.
Lol, itās also very simple to see that the system we currently utilize is inadequate and is geared towards maximizing profits to the owner, and that is not the fault of the server who is just trying to make a living.
Yes, itās not the serversā fault, itās the underpaying ownersā fault. We are in agreement. What is your point?
Although, I will concede that the servers are to blame a little bit as well. Time and time again when you ask servers whether or not they want to keep working in the current system, a majority says yes, they do because on a good day they can take home a lot of money. So, from my perspective it looks like thereās a scummy owner who pays too little, the server who calls me an asshole for not making up the difference while doing nothing at all to change anything and me who can either subsidize a shitty owner or get called an asshole. Somehow I donāt see how Iām the asshole in this situation just because the owner and the server decided so. If an employee is unhappy with their pay, they need to take it up with their employer instead of shifting the blame to someone who doesnāt employ them. Again, this is not unusual and itās how it works in every single other industry. Every one of them, without exception. I see no reason to treat this industry any differently, do you?
I donāt tip because Iām fine with āpicking up the owners tabā. I tip because I know that the only person who loses in the situation is the worker.
And you. You lose. Money. Money that should have come out of the employerās pocket.
Iām not shifting the blame from the owner, they are of course exploiting the worker.
Great, now explain why Iām the asshole for not making up for what the owner withholds. That callcenter agent I talked to about my phone bill is in the exact same situation as the worker in your example. Why am I an asshole for not subsidizing a server but not an asshole for not subsidizing the callcenter agent? It smells a bit of a double standard to me. Please explain why you think itās not.
Iām guessing you donāt tell the waiter you donāt believe in tipping before the serviceā¦?
This will come as a total surprise to you as I hid that fact very well until now: I havenāt frequented a tipped restaurant in 20 years. Do you tell the guy at McDonaldās how important it is to subsidize low wages out of your own pocket before the service? Why not?
Or ā¦you could go to the many restaurants that donāt rely on tips to pay their workers. That is the only way to actually fight tipping culture, by rewarding your patronage to an owner who utilizes a labour system you believer in.
What a great idea! If only I could turn back the last 20 years and not go to tipped restaurantsā¦ Hey, wait a minute! I already did that! Sorry, now I made you look a little stupid for suggesting that. I really should have told you earlier that I havenāt frequented a tipped restaurant in 20 years.
Love your wording, by the way! āRestaurants that rely on tips to pay their workersā sounds so much better than ārestaurants who systematically exploit their workersā. Restaurants donāt pay workers with tips. Customers do. After the already paid for the food and services they received.
I used to work as a chef while I worked my way through school, and I know how feast or famine things can be for people working up front. Iāve known people who couldnāt make rent because they had a bad day. I have basic empathy for my fellow workers.
In your basic empathy, did you ever request better conditions for you and the fellow workers you hold so dear? Or did you say nothing and perpetuate the system that treated you so cruelly? Who could watch close acquaintences unable to make rent and not open their mouth? Do you think your ex-co-workers will at least be grateful that you call people on the internet assholes for not thinking tipping stops tipping culture?
You said you havenāt participated in tipping culture for 20 years, based on your other shitty opinions, I figured that could mean you just havenāt tipped for 20 years.
No you didnāt. Let me refresh your memory:
Again, why not just support businesses that donāt rely on tipping to pay their staff?
Why didnāt I think of that and not do it for the last 20 years?
Youāre trying to paint me something bad because you have no strategy of justifying calling other people assholes for thinking tipping perpetuates tipping culture. If someone doesnāt accept being called an asshole, you have no way of convincing them because you know the system is shit and the customer isnāt actually to blame for the ownerās refusal to pay what is due. So youāre making up shit so you can get some insults in. Why? I already do what you demand, I donāt go to tipped restaurants. What else do you want? You agree that tipping doesnāt stop tipping culture. Whereās the disconnect?
To be honest you just seem like a person incapable of empathy, like some sort of libertarian sleezball. Anyways, have fun being a miserable ass.
Remember that we agree that tipping culture is shit? You have no reason to insult me like that other than the ones you made up in your head. You agree that tipping doesnāt stop tipping culture - my entire point. Yet you talked yourself into such a rage that you think these insults are an appropriate response. You started right off the bat with accusing me of wasting peopleās time and effort with no indication I ever did so or even think itās a justified thing to do. I made a statement you agree with but you reject the truth in it so deeply that your only reaction is making wild accusations and throwing insults.
Please take this opportunity to reflect on your beliefs and how you treat people who actually agree with you but have a slightly different point of view.
You seem to be either confused or unable to stay on topic. My point was that servers are paid by the hour which you confirm by stating the exact rates. What is your point? That they donāt get paid a lot? Iām aware, itās why I donāt go to these places.
So you agree with my original claimā¦? What the hell have you been bitching about then?
Is this supposed to somehow guilt me into wanting to tip?
No, my entire point was that if you donāt want to tip, donāt go to a place where the employees rely on tips to make a living. If you do go to a place where they rely on tips, you should tip even if you donāt like the concept.
If a server doesnāt make enough money, thatās between them and their employer like in literally (and I mean literally, not figuratively) every other industry.
Yeah, because systemic poverty is a problem solved by personal responsibilityā¦
A lot of people would love to not work for tips, but never had the resources or education to get a better career.
Oh, itās just the system, nothing we can do! We have to conform to the system because the owners donāt care!" is exactly what greedy restaurants owners are hoping youāll say and you perpetuate this system by repeating it over and over.
Orā¦like I originally said, donāt support those restaurants. Better yet, support politician and unions that aim to protect workers. My whole point is that we shouldnāt make it the workers problem.
Iām not even going to read the rest of you strawman argument, youāve already agreed with my original claim. The rest of what youāve said is just cognitive dissonance. You have been simultaneously saying itās not okay to frequent tip based restaurant, but have also been defending stiffing waiters. So it seems like you are just angry and confused, I donāt think talking about this with you anymore is going to be productive in any sense.
You should read the rest of my reply. If you refuse to allow for counter arguments to what you said, thereās no point in replying. You know exactly what my point is but you refuse to engage with it because you know Iām right.
I know how tipping works, thank you. If Iām not being tipped for waiting a table, I still get paid hourly wages, meaning I get money for that table or any other I wait during my work hours. If I hadnāt taken that table, I would still make hourly wages. I canāt believe you donāt know that. Youāre not just acting obtuse, are you?
Not tipping wastes nobodyās time. Servers are paid by the hour. Hours are time. Servers do not get to leave earlier when they receive tips. Do you think restaurant owners waste serversā time by underpaying them? Be honest.
You know what turning something around on someone means. If youāre unsure what happened, please make use of the scrolling up technology and use your eyes and brain to read what it says there. You already agreed that tipping doesnāt end tipping culture, so your act doesnāt really make sense now.
I donāt employ servers, so it is in no way my responsibility to pay their wages. Iām responsible for paying for the food and service that I receive. The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really. Itās fine if youāre OK with picking up someoneās employerās tab, I wonāt. Just donāt confuse whoās exploiting who just because you so desperately want to shift the blame away from the restaurant owner. Why are you even doing that? Youāre in a situation where one guy says āhey, youāre going to work for me full time but Iām only paying you a fraction even though I receive the full labour. If youāre lucky, my customers donate some of their money to your living expenses. Most do, the others are huge assholes, right?ā and you go āright, thatās very fair and sensible. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Mr Moneybags! Oh, the system surely sucks but apart from shaming customers into shelling out for what you systematically withhold, thereās just nothing that could be done :(ā Does your family own a restaurant or something?
What part of āI havenāt frequented tipped restaurants in 20 yearsā did you not understand? Obviously I have an opinion on tipping, how are you having trouble understanding that I would voice it in a public forum when that is the topic? You made a shitty point and I commented on it, why would not going to tipped restaurants keep me from doing that, exactly? Your logic is fucked up all around.
The hourly rate for most servers is less than minimum wage, which is already too low to make a living off of. Like I said, I donāt think you know how this works. You can legally pay a server $2.13 an hour in most states so long as what ever tips they make the rest of the day average to $7.25 an hour.
I think they take advantage of their labour, just as people like yourself do.
Act? My claim is that if you donāt like tipping, donāt go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living.
Lol, itās also very simple to see that the system we currently utilize is inadequate and is geared towards maximizing profits to the owner, and that is not the fault of the server who is just trying to make a living.
I donāt tip because Iām fine with āpicking up the owners tabā. I tip because I know that the only person who loses in the situation is the worker. The owner doesnāt care if you tip or donāt tip, he gets his money either way. Iām not shifting the blame from the owner, they are of course exploiting the worker. However, so are you if someone is working in the expectation of compensation and then receives none. Iām guessing you donāt tell the waiter you donāt believe in tipping before the serviceā¦?
Or ā¦you could go to the many restaurants that donāt rely on tips to pay their workers. That is the only way to actually fight tipping culture, by rewarding your patronage to an owner who utilizes a labour system you believer in.
An no, my family doesnāt own a restaurant. I used to work as a chef while I worked my way through school, and I know how feast or famine things can be for people working up front. Iāve known people who couldnāt make rent because they had a bad day. I have basic empathy for my fellow workers.
You said you havenāt participated in tipping culture for 20 years, based on your other shitty opinions, I figured that could mean you just havenāt tipped for 20 years. Also, I donāt really think someone who defends stiffing wait staff so vehemently online would really have a problem with taking advantage of their labour in real life and lying about it on the web.
To be honest you just seem like a person incapable of empathy, like some sort of libertarian sleezball. Anyways, have fun being a miserable ass.
You seem to be either confused or unable to stay on topic. My point was that servers are paid by the hour which you confirm by stating the exact rates. What is your point? That they donāt get paid a lot? Iām aware, itās why I donāt go to these places. Is this supposed to somehow guilt me into wanting to tip? Itās not my responsibility to subsidize wages, I donāt employ anyone so I donāt pay wages and Iām not going to pay indirect wages either. If a server doesnāt make enough money, thatās between them and their employer like in literally (and I mean literally, not figuratively) every other industry. Itās not different just because you carry plates. In fact, if you think carrying plates somehow makes the customer responsible for subsidizing wages, why not just cut out the middle man? Why donāt I come up to you on the street saying āhey, can you give me money, please? My employer doesnāt pay me enough and youād be a huge asshole if you didnāt give me money.ā? You would rightfully tell me to fuck off. Why is it different if I brought you food first? Because you have been duped into thinking it is by greedy restaurant owners who exploited the goodwill of customers and the labour of their staff. āOh, itās just the system, nothing we can do! We have to conform to the system because the owners donāt care!ā is exactly what greedy restaurants owners are hoping youāll say and you perpetuate this system by repeating it over and over.
Please explain how Iām taking advantage of anyone by going to a restaurant and paying for the food and service I receive. Then, please explain why Iām not taking advantage of anyone by going to McDonaldās and paying for the food and service I receive. Thirdly, please explain how Iām taking advantage of anyone by not having frequented a tipped restaurant in the last 20 year, which I already told you, twice. In your red-faced anger over me not holding the bag for restaurant owners you seem to forget what has already been discussed.
Yes, the obtuse act youāre putting on. You know servers are paid by the hour, yet ask questions that imply you donāt. You know what āturning something around on someoneā means, yet you pretend you donāt understand what happened. Not like I didnāt explain that to you in my last comment which you read and understood. For some reason youāre still keeping up the act.
Thatās not a claim, itās a demand. And youāve made it numerous times already and every time I told you that my point is ātipping also doesnāt stop tipping cultureā. I already donāt go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living. You know that and still you repeat your āclaimā. Do you not understand what Iām telling you? Iāll spell it out for you: Yes, donāt go to restaurants underpaying their staff. Also, donāt pretend you want to stop tipping culture when you actively perpetuate it. I know youāre not stupid and understand perfectly well what Iām telling you. Please act accordingly.
Yes, itās not the serversā fault, itās the underpaying ownersā fault. We are in agreement. What is your point?
Although, I will concede that the servers are to blame a little bit as well. Time and time again when you ask servers whether or not they want to keep working in the current system, a majority says yes, they do because on a good day they can take home a lot of money. So, from my perspective it looks like thereās a scummy owner who pays too little, the server who calls me an asshole for not making up the difference while doing nothing at all to change anything and me who can either subsidize a shitty owner or get called an asshole. Somehow I donāt see how Iām the asshole in this situation just because the owner and the server decided so. If an employee is unhappy with their pay, they need to take it up with their employer instead of shifting the blame to someone who doesnāt employ them. Again, this is not unusual and itās how it works in every single other industry. Every one of them, without exception. I see no reason to treat this industry any differently, do you?
And you. You lose. Money. Money that should have come out of the employerās pocket.
Great, now explain why Iām the asshole for not making up for what the owner withholds. That callcenter agent I talked to about my phone bill is in the exact same situation as the worker in your example. Why am I an asshole for not subsidizing a server but not an asshole for not subsidizing the callcenter agent? It smells a bit of a double standard to me. Please explain why you think itās not.
This will come as a total surprise to you as I hid that fact very well until now: I havenāt frequented a tipped restaurant in 20 years. Do you tell the guy at McDonaldās how important it is to subsidize low wages out of your own pocket before the service? Why not?
What a great idea! If only I could turn back the last 20 years and not go to tipped restaurantsā¦ Hey, wait a minute! I already did that! Sorry, now I made you look a little stupid for suggesting that. I really should have told you earlier that I havenāt frequented a tipped restaurant in 20 years.
Love your wording, by the way! āRestaurants that rely on tips to pay their workersā sounds so much better than ārestaurants who systematically exploit their workersā. Restaurants donāt pay workers with tips. Customers do. After the already paid for the food and services they received.
In your basic empathy, did you ever request better conditions for you and the fellow workers you hold so dear? Or did you say nothing and perpetuate the system that treated you so cruelly? Who could watch close acquaintences unable to make rent and not open their mouth? Do you think your ex-co-workers will at least be grateful that you call people on the internet assholes for not thinking tipping stops tipping culture?
No you didnāt. Let me refresh your memory:
Youāre trying to paint me something bad because you have no strategy of justifying calling other people assholes for thinking tipping perpetuates tipping culture. If someone doesnāt accept being called an asshole, you have no way of convincing them because you know the system is shit and the customer isnāt actually to blame for the ownerās refusal to pay what is due. So youāre making up shit so you can get some insults in. Why? I already do what you demand, I donāt go to tipped restaurants. What else do you want? You agree that tipping doesnāt stop tipping culture. Whereās the disconnect?
Remember that we agree that tipping culture is shit? You have no reason to insult me like that other than the ones you made up in your head. You agree that tipping doesnāt stop tipping culture - my entire point. Yet you talked yourself into such a rage that you think these insults are an appropriate response. You started right off the bat with accusing me of wasting peopleās time and effort with no indication I ever did so or even think itās a justified thing to do. I made a statement you agree with but you reject the truth in it so deeply that your only reaction is making wild accusations and throwing insults.
Please take this opportunity to reflect on your beliefs and how you treat people who actually agree with you but have a slightly different point of view.
So you agree with my original claimā¦? What the hell have you been bitching about then?
No, my entire point was that if you donāt want to tip, donāt go to a place where the employees rely on tips to make a living. If you do go to a place where they rely on tips, you should tip even if you donāt like the concept.
Yeah, because systemic poverty is a problem solved by personal responsibilityā¦
A lot of people would love to not work for tips, but never had the resources or education to get a better career.
Orā¦like I originally said, donāt support those restaurants. Better yet, support politician and unions that aim to protect workers. My whole point is that we shouldnāt make it the workers problem.
Iām not even going to read the rest of you strawman argument, youāve already agreed with my original claim. The rest of what youāve said is just cognitive dissonance. You have been simultaneously saying itās not okay to frequent tip based restaurant, but have also been defending stiffing waiters. So it seems like you are just angry and confused, I donāt think talking about this with you anymore is going to be productive in any sense.
You should read the rest of my reply. If you refuse to allow for counter arguments to what you said, thereās no point in replying. You know exactly what my point is but you refuse to engage with it because you know Iām right.