• EatATaco@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    I know Iā€™m running full on into the blades of pedophilic panic here and Iā€™m going to be accused of being a pedophile, but being attracted to pubescent teens is not a paraphilic disorder at all and perfectly normal.

    I am all for protecting minors and 100% support laws that criminalizes adults having sexual contact with them, but I think we do a disservice to peopleā€™s mental health to paint normal, healthy physical attractions as being deviant, and I donā€™t think it does anything to protect minors.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Iā€™m going to be accused of being a pedophile

      Proudly declaring yourself a guy who draws the line at fucking 10 year olds.

      I am all for protecting minors and 100% support laws that criminalizes adults having sexual contact with them, but

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        I explicitly stated that it should be illegal to have sex with minors, yet you still accuse me of saying itā€™s okay to have sex with minors.

        Thanks for demonstrating, so succinctly and clearly, how irrational those gripped by pedophile panic have become.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          I explicitly stated that it should be illegal to have sex with minors

          being attracted to pubescent teens is not a paraphilic disorder at all and perfectly normal

          Being attracted to 11 year olds, particularly when youā€™re of Epstein Age, is decidedly not normal.

          how irrational those gripped by pedophile panic have become

          Guy on his second bottle of Jim Bean yelling about how heā€™s being persecuted for doing a perfectly normal amount of drinking, even after he said heā€™d never actually endorse puking on your carpet.

          • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            Being attracted to 11 year olds, particularly when youā€™re of Epstein Age, is decidedly not normal.

            Noone said 11 year olds. I said pubescent. Notice how, to make your point, you have to lie about what was said. It makes it appear that even you realize itā€™s bs. Hell, especially considering youā€™ve swapped one lie out for another. How many different lies will you tell about what was said before you admit you might be wrong?

            Guy on his second bottle of Jim Bean yelling about how heā€™s being persecuted for doing a perfectly normal amount of drinking, even after he said heā€™d never actually endorse puking on your carpet.

            This literally makes no sense. Noone is talking about puking or overdrinking. Weā€™re talking about normal, healthy physical attraction. Iā€™ve explicitly excluded action from my claim if what is acceptable.

            • AVincentInSpace@pawb.social
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              3 months ago

              Just to point out, having a paraphilic disorder for pubescent teenagers is not pedophilia but hebephilia (i.e. having sexual interest in pubescent teenagers of either sex between 11 and 16)

              Sure sounds like you said 11 to me!

              • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                I didnā€™t make that post, I was correcting it.

                May I suggest not playing gotcha and trying to actually think about it logically and objectively?

                • AVincentInSpace@pawb.social
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                  3 months ago

                  Oh, my apologies. It appears you didnā€™t actually give a number, only replying to someone who did. All you said was that it was ā€œperfectly naturalā€ to fantasize about fucking anyone who was old enough to know what masturbation is.

                  What would you say is the lower bound for normality then?

                  • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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                    3 months ago

                    Fuck man. You are literally making up shit to put in this personā€™s mouth. Just drop it and touch some grass.

                  • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                    3 months ago

                    fantasize about fucking anyone who was old enough to know what masturbation is.

                    Again, blatantly lying about what I said. It never ceases to amaze me how much people will just deny reality in order to cling to irrational beliefs.

                    What would you say is the lower bound for normality then?

                    ? Iā€™ve already explicitly stated it. Right in the first post. You had to have read it to get here. Can you explain to me exactly what you donā€™t understand say I can phrase it better for you? I donā€™t see how just repeating myself will get it through to you this time.

    • LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Itā€™s not ā€œnormalā€ to be attracted to 14 year olds. Itā€™s not ā€œnormalā€ to be specifically attracted to any age group. Itā€™s honestly all a kink. Are you attracted to elderly people? No? Thatā€™s because you have a different kink. And donā€™t get into stupid biological bullshit of reproductive success etc, a woman in her 40s whoā€™s given birth before is in some cases much less likely to die in childbirth than a 14 year old who hasnā€™t done it before, arguably. That some people have breeding kinks with their pedo kinks is on them. Like seriously stop being so sexually narcissistic, there are thousands of kinks that combines in thousands of ways. Why do you think your kink is the ā€œnormalā€ one? Like get over yourself.

      Whether kinks are disorders or not is a separate topic. Where kinks come from - we donā€™t know 100%. Thereā€™s some evidence certain brain conditions can cause disorders and sexual dysfunction, so itā€™s possible pedophilia could be induced. Personally I am curious if oxytocin plays a role in pedophilia. You can get oxytocin (note: this is not OXYCONTIN) compounded in a nasal spray from compounding pharmacies. Just need a doctorā€™s prescription for it, it has been used experimentally for social anxiety. I think some pedophiles likely get extra oxytocin from children (and other groups get it from animals in some cases) which is part of what triggers their attraction even if they donā€™t want to harm children.

      If you are attracted to someone, that doesnā€™t entitle you to fucking them. Even if you can convince them to say yes somehow.

      Consent cannot be given if itā€™s not safe to give dissent. Meaning a ā€œyesā€ doesnā€™t count if a ā€œnoā€ wouldnā€™t count either. Most kids cannot readily say ā€œno.ā€ They cannot consent.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Itā€™s not ā€œnormalā€ to be specifically attracted to any age group.

        I said nothing about age, but about development.

        Why do you think your kink is the ā€œnormalā€ one?

        I said nothing about my own personal attractions. If youā€™re asking, Iā€™m not a hebephile. I would be lying if I were to claim Iā€™ve never found one physically attractive, but my general physical sexual attraction is probably about as vanilla as it gets. My actual kinks, not so much. But thatā€™s a completely different topic.

        Just like I defend homosexuality as a normal, healthy attraction, I defend this. That doesnā€™t make me gay, or a hebephile.

        If you are attracted to someone, that doesnā€™t entitle you to fucking them.

        And I pretty clearly said explicitly otherwise. Literally this whole thing about consent is just completely pulled out of your ass as it has nothing to do with anything Iā€™ve said. Hell, youā€™re whole rant is completely detached from the reality of anything Iā€™ve said.

        • LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Yeah ā€œdevelopmentā€ what a creepy word and again, ā€œdevelopmentā€ has nothing to do with it. Thatā€™s why I brought up the breeding kink part - the classic argument every libertarian creep who does the ā€œItā€™s hebephile not pedophileā€ dog whistle says this EXACT thing. Like you all are clearly watching the same porn. Itā€™s so weird of you. Idk how I have had this exact conversation with so many of my male peers. The other points I made are entirely relevant when it comes to fucking children. Many people think rape is a turn off, ya know?

          ā€œDevelopmentā€ is meaningless. It doesnā€™t make it okay because the person looks a certain way. A ā€œdevelopedā€ body is not an ā€œadultā€ body; many adult women have no breasts and no curves, and many young girls, some as young as 9!! get breasts. Is the adult woman with no breasts and no curves not ā€œdevelopedā€?

          That you associate ā€œdevelopmentā€ with sexual attraction is a YOU kink. Itā€™s not an EVERYONE kink. Itā€™s not the ā€œnaturalā€ state for people. Itā€™s a kink. That youā€™re justifying it with ā€œwell she looks fuckable and like she could have a baby to meā€ with no self awareness isā€¦ yikes.

          • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            Yeah ā€œdevelopmentā€ what a creepy word and again, ā€œdevelopmentā€ has nothing to do with it.

            lol. It literally has everything to do with it. Thatā€™s the whole point: when children enter into and finish puberty, they become capable of reproduction, so from an evolutionary perspective, that is a normal time to start finding them attractive. Just labelling it as ā€œcreepyā€ is an attempt to undermine the point because itā€™s hard to actually address it.

            Like you all are clearly watching the same porn.

            I tell you Iā€™m not into it, and what do you do? Lie, and claim Iā€™m into it. Iā€™ll state it again, it never ceases to amaze me how far people will go to deny reality to hold onto their irrational beliefs.

            Many people think rape is a turn off.

            Agreed. Which is why, as Iā€™ve already stated, itā€™s 100% wrong to have sex with them.

            Is the adult woman with no breasts and no curves not ā€œdevelopedā€?

            The fact that you need to ask this question just goes to show how absolutely ignorant you are of the topic, and probably shouldnā€™t even be discussing it at all.

            That you associate ā€œdevelopmentā€ with sexual attraction is a YOU kink.

            Holy shit, this insane. lol This debate never ceases to crack me up. Youā€™re literally arguing that being attracted to people who have gone through puberty is a ā€œkink.ā€ Even if you think that the stage of development that itā€™s ā€œappropriateā€ to become attracted to them is full adult, Tanner stage V, you still are arguing that development is important. But you are claiming this is nothing but a kink.

            That youā€™re justifying it with ā€œwell she looks fuckable and like she could have a baby to meā€ with no self awareness isā€¦ yikes.

            I have full self awareness of what Iā€™m saying. Itā€™s the people who claim that development stages has nothing to do with it and is a ā€œkinkā€ are the ones who lack the self-awareness to understand how little they know of what they talk aboutā€¦ yikes.

            • LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Reproduction has nothing to do with sexual arousal in people, unless they have a reproduction kink. It is not ā€œnormalā€ to hinge your arousal on reproduction. Ancient humans likely had no idea sex acts lead to babies. Their arousal was hinged on other things, kinda like most animals. Do you think stallions know they will have a baby when they breed a mare? Probably not. Reproduction is again, a kink. Which I have informed you repeatedly. That itā€™s been normalized by the groups you roll in, is a you thing.

              You are narcissistic about your kinks. A lot of men are, because they often keep them secret until they go onto forums for that kink where they can all engage in it together and share porn and ideas. Then they think ā€œIā€™m vanilla and normal,ā€ and project their kinks onto reality as if thatā€™s objective. Itā€™s not. Youā€™re wrong.

              Itā€™s creepy because of what it implies about your general philosophy to kids.

              You are into it. You are saying itā€™s ā€œnormalā€ as long as they are developed. Youā€™ve admitted finding young teens attractive before. This is about you. Stop being a coward.

              Answer me: Is the adult woman with no breasts and no curves not ā€œdevelopedā€?

              who have gone through puberty is a ā€œkink.ā€

              Youā€™re moving goalposts. First, you say itā€™s because they are developed- which describes a body type. Then you say itā€™s because they can reproduce - which describes their eggs/womb and ability to carry a baby - which a ā€œdevelopedā€ 12 year old likely cannot do compared to a 35 year old who is flat chested and not curvy. And ā€˜above pubertyā€™ includes people who cannot reproduce and are sometimes not ā€œdeveloped,ā€ such as elderly women. So which is it? Which do you mean? Or are you just making shit up because you think your kinks are ā€œnormalā€ and youā€™ve never analyzed or critically thought about them?

              All sexual attractions are kinks. Thatā€™s my point - there is no ā€œnormalā€ sexual arousal state. Calling it ā€œnormalā€ justifies a kink that harms others and allows for reactionary thinking. Itā€™s the same reason rapists rape and donā€™t realize it - they think their rape kink is ā€œnormal.ā€ Look at Andrew Tate and his fans.

              Being attracted to minors is not ā€œnormalā€ as an adult. Itā€™s just ā€œnormalā€ for you.

              • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                Reproduction has nothing to do with sexual arousal in people, unless they have a reproduction kink. It is not ā€œnormalā€ to hinge your arousal on reproduction. Ancient humans likely had no idea sex acts lead to babies. Their arousal was hinged on other things, kinda like most animals. Do you think stallions know theu will have a baby when they breed a mare? Probably not. Reproduction is again, a kink.

                This whole paragraph is ridiculously bizarre. First, sure, a stallion is probably not thinking about actual reproducing. But the instinct to breed is because of the need of an organism to reproduce. Trying to disconnect the two is laughably ridiculous. So to say that the drive to reproduce has nothing to do sexual arousal is mind-numbingly dumb.

                Which leads me to the next bizarre point. I didnā€™t say they were sexual attracted to them because they want to reproduce with them. Iā€™m saying that the ability to reproduce is what makes it natural to be attracted to someone, because thatā€™s the whole point. Or do you think the whole point of sexual arousal is just for funsies and serves no evolutionary purpose?

                And, third, again, why do you feel the need to continually lie about me? What purpose does it serve? Honestly, it just makes you appear completely unsure in your position.

                Stop being a coward.

                Whether it is about me makes no difference; the logic of my position holds either way as Iā€™ve already provided the psychology behind it that talks about how it is normal. I have no need to hide anything from you. You just need it to be about me because you need that to make it easy to ignore my position. Stop being a coward and address what Iā€™ve said instead of desperately trying to make it about me.

                Youā€™re moving goalposts.

                Literally the first thing I said was pubescent.

                which a ā€œdevelopedā€ 13 year old likely cannot do compared to a 35 year old who is flat chested and not curvy.

                Curvy is not the same thing as developed. How can you have such a strong opinions about this while being so woefully ignorant about the basic facts?

                All sexual attractions are kinks.

                By definition this is incorrect, as kink, by definition, means non-conventional sexual acts. This is the second word in this post for which youā€™ve gotten the definition completely wrong. Maybe hebephilia is a kink, I havenā€™t given that much thought or research.

                Calling it ā€œnormalā€ justifies a kink that harms others and allows for reactionary thinking.

                Youā€™re confusing two things here. Kink does not mean bad, and normal does not mean acting on it is okay. We are not our thoughts, we are our actions. Unless you are willing to lie to me, youā€™ve certainly had thoughts that, if you had acted on them, it would have been woefully inappropriate, at best. This doesnā€™t make you a bad person or not-normal. Everyone has thoughts that acting on them would be inappropriate or wrong.

                And, yes, Iā€™m absolutely trying to justify the thoughts. Thatā€™s my whole point. The thoughts are normal and natural and not the sign of some paraphilic disorder. Just like if someone is into BDSM, this is not a disorder, in and of itself. Just like wanting to have sex with more than one partner is not a disorder. Just like anal play is not a disorder. They are fine, natural, things. Obviously the ones Iā€™ve listed are okay to act out on with another consenting adult(s), and acting out on it with a minor is not.

                • LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  We do not know if another organism can reproduce with us or not, until we go to reprodice with them over time. Many cishet couples are infertile despite being very attracted to each other and thinking the other person was fertile. You canā€™t know by looking. If reproduction really mattered, gay people wouldnā€™t exist. There would be no infertility. People would automatically have sex according to reproduction. They donā€™t. Thereā€™s your evidence. That weā€™ve evolved to reproduce is different than what actually compels sexual arousal.

                  You have a breeding kink which is why youā€™re conflating these. Idk what else to say. Agree to disagree. You canā€™t see your own narcissism. Itā€™s kinda embarrassing tbh.

                  Iā€™m not lying. You yourself said you found teens attractive and that itā€™s normal.

                  I have addressed what you said. In full. Go back and read again.

                  That this is about you is relevant because you are blind to your own biases. Youā€™re projecting your experience onto ā€œnormal.ā€ Thatā€™s why itā€™s relevant.

                  Define what you mean by ā€œdeveloped.ā€

                  There is dissent on sexual health in psychology and terms. I am going with Susan Kaplanā€™s understanding and the idea that there is no such thing as a sex addiction and that sexual attractions have both biological and social causes. The version youā€™re talking about is more Christian-centered, forensic science centered, and less neuroscience and sex health forward.

                  Kink with this on mind means any specific stimuli that causes sexual arousal, because there is no assumed ā€œnormalā€ state of sexual arousal. To assume so without evidence and controls would be unscientific. And per sociological studies, the classic version of ā€œnormalā€ sex here in the US has changed over time, isnā€™t normal for most people in the US, and isnā€™t normal for most worldwide.

                  I have never stated any kink is a disorder, although some sexual behavior can indeed be caused by things like Alzheimers and other anomalies. Some kinks do harm people and I am condemning that harm. That includes speech that normalizes having sex with kids as a natural thing for everyone, when it is not. It is just a kink you have. It is not more natural or normal than any other kink including necrophilia. Arguably necrophilia does less damage and is a better kink to normalize than sex with minors who are basically slaves in this country and who would be horribly fucked up by this.

                  Just like wanting to have sex with more than one partner is not a disorder

                  Right, itā€™s within described human behavior (and we have anatomical studies backimg this up) to want to have sex with zero people. Or just 1 person. Or to do serial monogamy. Or to engage in any variety of nonmonogamy. However, ethically it is wrong to own your sex partner as a slave, whether thats 1 partner or 20. Even within BDSM contexts, your partner should have safewords. The way the kink is practiced should be with awareness and consent. Nonmonogamy isnā€™t ethical if itā€™s not informed, if everyone didnā€™t consent. And no relationship, monogamous or not, is ethical if there are nonconsensual, not informed power play dynamics.

                  Eg I have nothing against ageplay with 2 consenting adults. I have a lot against rhetoric that encourages and normalizes sex amd sexual attraction with minors, because they cannot consent.

                  • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                    3 months ago

                    If reproduction really mattered, gay people wouldnā€™t exist.

                    And there we have it folks, weā€™re so removed from reality that reproduction - the basis of perpetuating a species and the primary aspect of one of the most well supported scientific theories of all time (the Theory of Evolution) - doesnā€™t really matter. lol

                    You have a breeding kink which is why youā€™re conflating these. Idk what else to say. Agree to disagree. You canā€™t see your own narcissism. Itā€™s kinda embarrassing tbh.

                    This is not something we can ā€œagree to disagreeā€ on. I donā€™t have a breeding kink. But Iā€™m beginning to see whats going on here. . .you think you know more than modern psychologists, you think you know more than scientists who have complied a massive amount of information confirming the theory of evolution, you think you know more about my ā€œkinksā€ than I do. . . you are obsessed with painting me as a narcissist because you are one. Literally, you are so full of yourself that you think you know more than scientists across multiple fields, and me about my own attractions. And I think you can see it which is why you are trying to project it onto me.

                    Kink with this on mind means any specific stimuli that causes sexual arousal, because there is no assumed ā€œnormalā€ state of sexual arousal.

                    But your whole point contradicts itself. If there is no such thing as a kink, then there is nothing wrong with being attracted to pubescent teens, or even children for that matter. If nothing is normal, then no attraction can be considered abnormal or wrong. If reproduction doesnā€™t matter, than being attracted to pre-pubescent children makes perfect sense and you canā€™t condemn it. You canā€™t have your cake and eat it too, although Iā€™m sure youā€™ll try. lol