The act of revolution is itself an authoritarian act. A bunch of people with guns force everyone else to listen to what they have to say. It was authoritarian when the American founding fathers did it, it was authoritarian when the French did it, it was authoritarian when the Russians did it.
What happens afterward is what counts. Every socialist society that has or currently exists has a democratic process, but capitalist countries point to the methods that various socialists have used to prevent capitalist takeover of their systems and say that those methods invalidate the whole process. Socialists, in turn, point to all of the rampant corruption that is taken for granted in capitalist elections and say that those make the process into a sham.
So the question is, do you believe that bourgeois control of mass media, political action groups, and the direct sponsorship of candidates by the wealthy invalidates capitalist elections? If so, to what extent do you think society should go to prevent those things from interfering in the democratic process? Whatever answer you come to, in order to implement it you will first need to get a bunch of people with guns together to dictate what the new democracy is going to look like.
If you disagree with any of the things I said, then please do so. I would love to have my perspective broadened by more well thought out points of view. But all I get from most liberals and anticommunists is the same reheated arguments I’ve seen debunked over and over and over.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your main point.
Though the arguments you make will not work on anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.
You kinda cope in there by saying that the governments that called themselves socialist in the past were democratic, which is kind of not true for a lot of them. There’s degrees to it but for the most part they weren’t.
I think it’s smarter for us to distance ourselves from those governments as they ultimately didn’t really represent our views, not mine at least.
The other problem is the Engels On Authority ass first paragraph, equating use of violence with authoritarianism.
When you do thay you kinda just come off as an authoritarian if people aren’t already familiar with your definitions (similar to using the phrase dictatorship of the proletariat.)
The argument is also just silly and I wish I could go back in time and stop it from entering the material world but I am too lazy to write about it. A lot of libertarian communists have written about it over the past century so you can probably fish something up if you look.
You kinda cope in there by saying that the governments that called themselves socialist in the past were democratic, which is kind of not true for a lot of them. There’s degrees to it but for the most part they weren’t.
I would love some examples here. The Soviets conducted elections. The Chinese conduct elections. The Koreans conduct elections. The Cubans conduct elections. The Vietnamese conduct elections. My argument is not that any of their practices of democracy are without criticism, but that they are fundamentally more legitimate than any capitalist practice of democracy thanks to the elimination of bourgeois election influence ie PACs, donations, mass media campaigns, etc.
I think it’s smarter for us to distance ourselves from those governments as they ultimately didn’t really represent our views, not mine at least.
And I pointedly disagree with this. When you say “I am a socialist but every other socialist government was bad” you are severely undercutting your own argument right out of the gate. You should instead say, “I am a socialist because socialists have achieved great things” and fight back against the received propaganda about our movement that afflicts most of western society.
I would love some examples here. The Soviets conducted elections. The Chinese conduct elections. The Koreans conduct elections. The Cubans conduct elections. The Vietnamese conduct elections.
Comrades in this election you may democratically vote for the one candidate from our party, as the opponent tragically fell out of a window.
And I pointedly disagree with this. When you say “I am a socialist but every other socialist government was bad” you are severely undercutting your own argument right out of the gate.
When you associate yourself with authoritarian hellholes you become an unhinged weirdo to 90% of the population.
It’s not the 1960s anymore, we know what these countries are/were like and if you really want to simp for them then don’t be surprised people think you hate democracy.
No you don’t! That’s my point! You believe a century of propaganda, and the only way that will change is if it is pushed back against at every opportunity!
So were you part of the majority that wanted to keep the Soviet Union? The majority that opposed German reunification? The majority that voted in a single socialist Korean government or the majority that supported the Vietnamese one? Because every time a socialist government is formed the same pattern plays out - the majority prosper, the majority support it, but the wealthy deposed ruling class cries about how they aren’t allowed to be in charge anymore until the US gives them the backing they need to overthrow the people and reinstate their own dictatorship.
The only way to cut through propaganda is research. But 90% of people do zero research and simply assume that the things they see on movies and tv are a reflection of reality.
The act of revolution is itself an authoritarian act. A bunch of people with guns force everyone else to listen to what they have to say. It was authoritarian when the American founding fathers did it, it was authoritarian when the French did it, it was authoritarian when the Russians did it.
What happens afterward is what counts. Every socialist society that has or currently exists has a democratic process, but capitalist countries point to the methods that various socialists have used to prevent capitalist takeover of their systems and say that those methods invalidate the whole process. Socialists, in turn, point to all of the rampant corruption that is taken for granted in capitalist elections and say that those make the process into a sham.
So the question is, do you believe that bourgeois control of mass media, political action groups, and the direct sponsorship of candidates by the wealthy invalidates capitalist elections? If so, to what extent do you think society should go to prevent those things from interfering in the democratic process? Whatever answer you come to, in order to implement it you will first need to get a bunch of people with guns together to dictate what the new democracy is going to look like.
MLs when they get to play wet biscuit with a copy of On Authority
If you disagree with any of the things I said, then please do so. I would love to have my perspective broadened by more well thought out points of view. But all I get from most liberals and anticommunists is the same reheated arguments I’ve seen debunked over and over and over.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your main point.
Though the arguments you make will not work on anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.
You kinda cope in there by saying that the governments that called themselves socialist in the past were democratic, which is kind of not true for a lot of them. There’s degrees to it but for the most part they weren’t.
I think it’s smarter for us to distance ourselves from those governments as they ultimately didn’t really represent our views, not mine at least.
The other problem is the Engels On Authority ass first paragraph, equating use of violence with authoritarianism.
When you do thay you kinda just come off as an authoritarian if people aren’t already familiar with your definitions (similar to using the phrase dictatorship of the proletariat.)
The argument is also just silly and I wish I could go back in time and stop it from entering the material world but I am too lazy to write about it. A lot of libertarian communists have written about it over the past century so you can probably fish something up if you look.
I would love some examples here. The Soviets conducted elections. The Chinese conduct elections. The Koreans conduct elections. The Cubans conduct elections. The Vietnamese conduct elections. My argument is not that any of their practices of democracy are without criticism, but that they are fundamentally more legitimate than any capitalist practice of democracy thanks to the elimination of bourgeois election influence ie PACs, donations, mass media campaigns, etc.
And I pointedly disagree with this. When you say “I am a socialist but every other socialist government was bad” you are severely undercutting your own argument right out of the gate. You should instead say, “I am a socialist because socialists have achieved great things” and fight back against the received propaganda about our movement that afflicts most of western society.
Comrades in this election you may democratically vote for the one candidate from our party, as the opponent tragically fell out of a window.
When you associate yourself with authoritarian hellholes you become an unhinged weirdo to 90% of the population.
It’s not the 1960s anymore, we know what these countries are/were like and if you really want to simp for them then don’t be surprised people think you hate democracy.
No you don’t! That’s my point! You believe a century of propaganda, and the only way that will change is if it is pushed back against at every opportunity!
Nah, we do. Some of us actually grew up in them. But I’m sure you know best.
So were you part of the majority that wanted to keep the Soviet Union? The majority that opposed German reunification? The majority that voted in a single socialist Korean government or the majority that supported the Vietnamese one? Because every time a socialist government is formed the same pattern plays out - the majority prosper, the majority support it, but the wealthy deposed ruling class cries about how they aren’t allowed to be in charge anymore until the US gives them the backing they need to overthrow the people and reinstate their own dictatorship.
“I am immune to propaganda but you’re not”
The only way to cut through propaganda is research. But 90% of people do zero research and simply assume that the things they see on movies and tv are a reflection of reality.
you talk about bourgeois influence/propaganda, why you don’t care abut goverment propaganda?
Propaganda from the bourgeois: Taxing us is bad, actually.
Propaganda from socialist governments: We should all work together to build a better future!
These things are not the same.