• Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    just that they were progressive compared to their peers,

    But this is just a whataboutism. I don’t care how progressive they were. What matter is them being authoritarians.

    Is Wikipedia too Communist of a source?

    No, of course not. However I don’t see your white graph anywhere on that article.

    Primary source of what, exactly?

    The makeup of people held in the gulags. The reasons why they’re there, whether they had trials, whether they were de facto considered innocent/guilty, etc. While interesting, neither of the links you use explain it. How many of those ‘criminals’ where put there for something non-violent?

    You said all countries are authoritarian, why stick specifically to being upset at the USSR if they were less authoritarian than their contemporaries?

    Here’s the thing, even in comparison to it’s contemporaries I don’t think the USSR was less authoritarian. On the basis of prisoner populations, even the US as grossly authoritarian as it has been had a lower prison population (obviously only up until Regan).

    https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2016/12/29/bjs2016/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#/media/File:USSR_custodial_population_in_1934-53.png

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg

    Wouldn’t a reduction in authoritarianism be a good thing?

    Authoritarianism is still authoritarianism. Here’s the thing, if you want to argue for socialism/communism, I’m all for it. But for the most part it is probably a terrible strategy to defend the USSR, and other countries that are portrayed as authoritarian dictatorships, because there is a great deal of truth to those portrayals from what it seems. You’re just gonna scare off anybody even slightly closed minded.

    It’s probably a far better use of everybody’s time to show that capitalism is a failure, that it’s impossible to be paid the value you make under capitalism, that capitalism is just dictatorship in the workplace, etc. Those are the seeds you plant to get people to break out of their support for capitalism. Those are the ones that grow.

    • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      But this is just a whataboutism. I don’t care how progressive they were. What matter is them being authoritarians.

      You don’t seem to care about much of anything. If progressing and improving systems isn’t enough for you because it isn’t immediately paradise for everyone and Utopia for all, then you’re deeply unserious and purely serve as a contrarion for nobody’s benefit.

      The makeup of people held in the gulags. The reasons why they’re there, whether they had trials, whether they were de facto considered innocent/guilty, etc. While interesting, neither of the links you use explain it. How many of those ‘criminals’ where put there for something non-violent?

      Where are you getting the idea that large percentages of people were locked up without trial? Don’t you have to provide evidence for your claims as well?

      Authoritarianism is still authoritarianism. Here’s the thing, if you want to argue for socialism/communism, I’m all for it. But for the most part it is probably a terrible strategy to defend the USSR, and other countries that are portrayed as authoritarian dictatorships, because there is a great deal of truth to those portrayals from what it seems. You’re just gonna scare off anybody even slightly closed minded.

      “Authoritarianism” as admitted by yourself is a buzzword descriptor for every state, and is just a vibe. You don’t care how countries compare to their peers or their previous conditions, just vibes.

      Additionally, it is important to accurately depict and defend the USSR. While there were numerous issues, there were numerous resounding successes as well. Defending the real merits of AES is important, because if one is a Socialist, presumably they want Socialism!

      It’s probably a far better use of everybody’s time to show that capitalism is a failure, that it’s impossible to be paid the value you make under capitalism, that capitalism is just dictatorship in the workplace, etc. Those are the seeds you plant to get people to break out of their support for capitalism. Those are the ones that grow.

      What makes you think I don’t do that as well?