Hi,

jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy, some user posted this thread 16 days ago : https://jlai.lu/post/11504685, and a flamewar ensued between hexbear and the french, e.g. between happybadger and their administrator here.

Since they didn’t really have any reason to defederate initially, they’re now adamant that they should defederate only because of this discussion, since it proved that every Hexbear&Lemmygrad user is agressive(, as if jlai.lu users weren’t agressive in this discussion as well).
I still find hard to believe that they could defederate on such weak basis, and it does feel like a convenient excuse, but that’s what they’re saying, ask them for confirmation if you don’t believe it either.

They also used a list of post found on /c/MeanwhileOnGrad@sh.itjust.works as if it was representative, but it hardly counts as an argument, what a stupid situation…

They’ve now pinned this post for 12 days, and the defederation with both Hexbear and Lemmygrad seems unavoidable.
I’ve known this for more than a week but didn’t care that much, yet when talking with them, and especially @Camus here, they/he said that they/he would like to talk to you. @Camus is very patient/nice, and you can look at his number of comments/posts to gauge his influence, probably their most active user(, kind of a french ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆).
Well, to be more precise, he informally asked for some excuses from Hexbear, but my post here didn’t reach them, perhaps because of “r*tard” in my username(, r*tardataire designate someone who’s late in french).
However, more than excuses in the name of others, you only have to show him that we’re not aggressive(, if you have some time, it won’t change much in the end), something very easy/natural to prove for >90% of Hexbear users(, and perhaps >70-80% of Lemmygrad 🙂, it does feel a bit more bitter/serious here, not a criticism).

They have some communities that aren’t that far apart from what could be found on Lemmygrad or Hexbear b.t.w., so it can’t really be said that they’d reject us solely based on terrorism apologia, supporting Stalin, etc.(, even if their “leftist” admin is against socialist countries because our capitalists said that they’re authoritarian).
Staying federated with a french instance would be useless for 99% of Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so if you intervene it’d mostly be on the behalf of current/future french users(, it can be nice sometimes to speak your native language without using an alt account), and perhaps also for Lemmygrad and Hexbear’s reputation on jlai.lu.
If you’re french, and/or simply nice, and want a chat with them, feel free to do so directly under the post or with @Camus.
(Kinda worth mentionning in passing that, currently, their top two posts of all time sorted by the most comments are the ones cited above about this defederation)

Also, keep in mind that this defederation is unavoidable though, if it doesn’t happen now it’ll be next year or the year after. As you know, reddit banned ChapoTrapHouse, GenZedong, etc., and we were quickly banned from lemmy.world and others, so we’ll one day be banned from other “centrist” instances such as the french one. Just like we’d also be banned/censored by our governement if our numbers grow enough to disturb/‘be a threat’.
Furthermore, Hexbear took action, and decided to defederate first without even trying to discuss more calmly. So don’t waste too much of your time either(, but please don’t go there unless you intent to speak calmly).

Thanks for reading :) !

  • anansi@jlai.lu
    0·
    10 days ago

    As I said on hexbear, I thought that an obvious reference to the Chinese tale of the frog in the well, in this context, would be funny, but I guess there was some over-expectation of the level of literacy of the average reader.

    Even then, taken literally, this post was made well after the thread where you people were asking for terrorist attacks in France and overall genocide of French people, so I once again would like to point out the double standard.

    Also, there is a difference between whining and explaining, but whatever you want to make yourself the victim, bébou.

    • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      0·
      10 days ago

      “I’m just joking about murdering you bro, come on, it’s your fault you’re too ignorant to get it” – this sort of shit is why I told you to fuck off. You are just trolling and getting the appropriate response: disrespect.

      this post was made well after the thread where you people were asking for terrorist attacks in France

      You don’t get to whine about this when you do the same exact thing. You can either be honest, acknowledge that people get heated on the internet sometimes, and acknowledge that you do that too, or you can keep up the insults and pretend like there isn’t shit all over your hands as well.

      • ☭ Comrade Pup Ivy 🇨🇺@lemmygrad.ml
        0·
        10 days ago

        Look lets not be unable to self reflect here, there has been a large meme that I do not fully understand the context behind, nor the bennifit from, of randomly hating french people, and this is a problem, especialy when you cary that into the french instance. You are right that it is probably not the best look especialy for an admin to mention throwing us into a well, but lets also be congnsent of our actions here too, when you start out on anti-french sentiment, for reasons based on frenchness, you are not going to get welcomeing results, and to be honest starting a flaim war is the best possible interpritation of that.

        • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
          0·
          10 days ago

          You are right that it is probably not the best look especialy for an admin to mention throwing us into a well

          My point is that if one says things like this, I’m not going to care if they complain about the same kind of violent wishcasting being aimed at them (and I’m definitely not going to care if they tut-tut about someone merely being abrasive or profane). They’re just being dishonest, and there’s no reason to engage with that.

          Besides, none of this is about saying mean things anyway. It’s about a few of the most active users over there thinking that if you support AES states you’re a fascist. They aren’t willing to have any sort of good faith conversation with you or me; they think we’re basically brownshirts, they think we should be thrown in a well. One of my first comments in their defederation thread was asking this Anansi asshole a genuine question about atrocity propaganda – no insults, no jokes, just “the west has lied about this in the past so I’m skeptical of them today.” The very first reply included:

          Seing all of you parading as “true” leftists while spouting the chinese equivalent of hasbara and not even seing the irony in this makes me hate you even more that shitlibs

          Licking the boots of yet another authoritarian regime with state capitalism and a history of purging minorities

          That’s what they think of you and me. This is what they are upset about – not mean words – and they are unwilling to discuss it.

          • ☭ Comrade Pup Ivy 🇨🇺@lemmygrad.ml
            0·
            10 days ago

            Look what I am saying is that us wishcasting because someone is french, is not going to help, and is far more damaging to our aims and allows them a way to immedatly deflect any of our points, its not helpful and it also and opens up the door to shitposting that only elevates the tempreture.

            Also are you saying you are so unprincipled that insults are going to make you lash out? that because they do not know what they do not know, and are opperating on the propoganda they are fed and bombarded with? We need to keep our cool, WE need to learn how to discuss it with a hostile audence. Unless this is your first day as a Marxist you should both know and expect this to be the thoughts on our opinions, we cannot let that break us into insults and “edgelording” no we must keep our cool.

            • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
              0·
              10 days ago

              wishcasting because someone is french, is not going to help, and is far more damaging to our aims and allows them a way to immedatly deflect any of our points

              Agreed. I don’t make those sorts of comments, and I’ve pushed back on them under this username and others in the past. But I also understand there are good reasons to be deeply angry over the crimes of empire, and I’ve seen how being perfectly civil doesn’t get you far, either.

              We need to keep our cool, WE need to learn how to discuss it with a hostile audence.

              When someone responds to a discussion of atrocity propaganda with “I hate you, you just want to kill minorities,” you are no longer trying to discuss anything with that person. You’re now making arguments for the people reading along. You don’t have to be a doormat to do that, and being too conciliatory can give the impression that your argument isn’t that strong.

      • anansi@jlai.lu
        0·
        10 days ago

        “I’m just joking about murdering you bro, come on, it’s your fault you’re too ignorant to get it” – this sort of shit is why I told you to fuck off. You are just trolling and getting the appropriate response: disrespect.

        To cite an intellectual :

        You don’t get to whine about this when you do the same exact thing.

        You can either be honest, acknowledge that people get heated on the internet sometime, and acknowledge that you do that too, or you can keep up the insults and pretend like there isn’t shit all over your hands, too.

        If you could read more than a sentence, you’d have read that in my response above.

        Yeah, I respond in a flame war started by stupid people because it’s funny, but when I come with a witty reference after you call for a french genocide, you are here whining and projecting that behavior on me lol.

        You’re just trying to make yourself a victim, I get it, but I don’t really care. You could have called for my mum to be raped I wouldn’t have cared any less.

        My point was just that tankies came in a thread to throw shit, and now are crying that shit are being sent back. You just think I’m trolling because you missed a reference to a tale that we are taught about in primary school, you do you.

          • soumerd_retardataire@lemmygrad.mlOP
            0·
            10 days ago

            I never heard about it before either : https://zhongwenhub.com/frog-in-the-well-5-ways-to-use-the-chinese-idiom/

            “The Frog in the Well” is a proverb used to describe being ignorant of the world outside one’s limited environment.

            Here’s the wiki, and out of the 348 fables translated in english here, it is among the 20 ones translated in other languages

            I’ve already said that both sides fueled the flamewar, but it’s worth adding that anansi agreed they was a great deal of shitposting that day, and honestly i also feels that it’s worth repeating that it’s not a good reason to defederate because of that since it doesn’t happen often.
            Furthermore, it did happen under a post that was vexing, usually a temporary ban could be resorted to in order to appease some tensions, defederating wasn’t an option on reddit. It feels like jlai.lu shouldn’t defederate with Hexbear and Lemmygrad at least if it’s solely for this reason.

            • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
              0·
              10 days ago

              an authoritarian remains an authoritarian and that the only place they deserve is down a well, not forgetting to strike the hands that try to escape with a big stick

              That has nothing to do with the fable you found; it’s very plainly “those people I’m comparing to Nazis should be killed like Nazis.” Surprise surprise, “it’s a joke bro!” yet again turns out to be bullshit.

              • soumerd_retardataire@lemmygrad.mlOP
                0·
                10 days ago

                Excellent point, i forgot to explain, here’s the post :

                Which in french is :
                Mon avis personnel, pour ceux que ça intéresse, est que ces deux instances sont remplies de ce qu’on qualifie ici de rouges-bruns, tankies, ou encore fascistes de gauche.
                Ce sont avant tout des autoritaires qui aiment se dire de gauche, mais utilisent les mêmes outils, ont la même vision politique, la même organisation, et ont tendance politiquement et historiquement à s’allier aux fascistes “officiels” dès qu’un mouvement réellement de gauche révolutionnaire émerge.
                Je trouvais tolérable de “ne rien faire” tant qu’ils restaient dans leurs coins, mais j’avais un peu oublié qu’un autoritaire reste un autoritaire et que la seule place qu’ils méritent est dans un puits, en n’oubliant pas de frapper les mains qui tentent de sortir avec un gros bâton.

                In English :
                My personal opinion, for those who care, is that these two instances are filled with what we call here red-browns, tankies, or even left-wing fascists.
                They are primarily authoritarians who like to call themselves leftists, but they use the same tools, have the same political vision, the same organization, and tend politically and historically to align themselves with “official” fascists as soon as a genuinely revolutionary left-wing movement emerges.
                I found it tolerable to “do nothing” as long as they stayed in their own corner, but I had somewhat forgotten that an authoritarian remains an authoritarian and that the only place they deserve is in a well, not forgetting to strike the hands that try to climb out with a big stick.

                In this metaphor we, the authoritarians, are trapped in a well, with a narrow mindview, just like the frog, who believes that the small circle of sky s.he sees from the bottom of the well represents all there is.
                I guess that it’s also true that he spoke of putting back the frog if s.he wants to see the outside world, but hey, it wasn’t a lie though, and there’s possibly also some version with a stick somewhere i haven’t checked in depth.

                The link with the 348 tales clearly wasn’t relevant to understand the context of the well, with a frog in it(, appropriate for a french b.t.w.), but it’s a real thing in the chinese culture, the first link had this quote for instance :

                Upon hearing this, the frog in the well was so shocked he couldn’t speak. He had no idea that a place with even more significance than his dark, abandoned well could exist. Sadly, a frog in the well knows not the ocean.

                • Pili@lemmygrad.ml
                  0·
                  10 days ago

                  That fable thing sounds like a bullshit excuse tbh.

                  Suppose he hates communists because he thinks their opinions are narrow, but when they try to get out of the well he beats them up so they stay in it, unable to expand their views and change? If he hates communists, why would he want them not to grow? That doesn’t make sense and he’s just trying to do some damage control to not look like a psycho.

                  Or maybe it true and he really thought it was witty, genuinely not seeing how dumb it actually is. But I doubt it.

                  • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
                    0·
                    10 days ago

                    Yeah, I understand the argument that “let’s throw them in a well and make sure they don’t get out” is related to the fable – I just don’t buy it.

                    It’d be like claiming “face the wall” is a lighthearted reference to Humpty Dumpty.

    • Pili@lemmygrad.ml
      0·
      10 days ago

      You can hide behind Shrek references to make your threats if you want, they are still threats.

      Everyone thinks what you said was gross, and your response to that is a classist “they think I’m gross because everyone else is so less educated than me”. That’s not it bro, it doesn’t matter, that’s not what the problem is, you can rob a bank and tell the police “but it was just a reference to Casa de Papel man, don’t you get it?” it won’t change about what will happen to you. This is literally you right now.

      You need to log off and try to do some self-criticism. And if you find yourself in leftist spaces again in the future, know that you won’t get any sympathy with classist remarks in those places.

      • soumerd_retardataire@lemmygrad.mlOP
        0·
        10 days ago

        fueling the flamewar i see
        Frankly what is the point of saying that ? Hexbear and Lemmygrad users insulted them as well, can’t we just leave in peace, like i can’t argue for them to accept us if you reject them

        • Pili@lemmygrad.ml
          0·
          10 days ago

          And I recommend every Hexbear and Lemmygrad users who brigaded jlai.lu and insulted them to do some serious self-criticism too. I don’t want to pretend that what was said wasn’t grave when the person behind it tries so hard to minimize it, that entire episode created a lot of heat and I don’t want it to be for nothing, I want to see some growth emerge out of it.

          I don’t mind disengaging and let you handle all of it, I would prefer it actually, but in the end there can’t be acceptance if either side think they can disrespect the other.

          • soumerd_retardataire@lemmygrad.mlOP
            0·
            10 days ago

            Wow, it’s the perfect example of me not realizing that someone was really nice in the end, i’m sorry.
            Engage all you want, just i don’t think that he’ll be there and it feels useless/‘less constructive’ to be agressive, but you’re ultra-ok in this comment do what you want :)

            • Pili@lemmygrad.ml
              0·
              10 days ago

              I realise that my comment could be seen both as mean or as “nice” (I wouldn’t go as far as calling it nice personally, maybe neutral), It’s complicated to convey tone and intent through text. Also I’m particularly tired so I’m not making the best efforts to put in the form. Anyway I’m done for the night.