I don’t feel as bad as I thought I would. I’ve been an NDP voter all my life, so like most lefties I was shocked by Trump’s win in 2016, horrified by his COVID bullshit, and appalled by his conspiracy theories and violent rhetoric in the 2024 campaign. Trump is so obviously horrible that I kept asking the same question: how could HALF of the US electorate support him? I just can’t believe that HALF of America are fascist misogynistic white supremacists.
So, I started listening to alternative media. For example, I listened to Trump’s interview with Joe Rogan (yes, the whole three+ hours). I listened to Bari Weiss’s Honestly podcast, where she talks to disaffected progressives, and had a great debate between Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro. And many others.
So far, this is what I’ve come up with:
The Democratic Party has abandoned the traditional working class, or at least the working class feels abandoned by the Democratic Party. The Dems have become “cultural elites” that too many average people just can’t identify with at all. Trump may not be good for the working class, but at least he speaks to them and their concerns. This of course leads to a discussion about how the Dems would have a better relationship with labour if they hadn’t fucked over Bernie Sanders.
The Democratic Party has become obsessed with identity politics, at the expense of real issues that matter to most people. Identity politics is pure poison that has become the leftist version of McCarthyism to a lot of people.
The Dems foreign policy is seen as weak by both the left and right. They fucked around on the Ukraine war to the point where Russia is now winning. And they lifted the sanctions on Iran that allowed it to fund Islamist groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis and blow up the Middle East. And the left is pissed off that they don’t speak out against Israel’s aggressive policy toward the Palestinians. So, the Dems aren’t pleasing anyone when it comes to foreign policy.
The Dems had a good issue with reproductive rights, but a lot of states are moving to protect reproductive rights on theor own (including ballot measures), which may have relieved some of the pressure on Trump.
People talk a lot about Trump being better for the economy. I’m not sure economists would agree, but that is a large part of the sentiment favouringTrump.
Edit: 6. Immigration. How could I forget immigration. Illegal immigration really pisses off Americans, including and perhaps especially among legal immigrants. I’m not sure that immigrants love Trump’s immigration position, but most of the country see the Dems as too ideologically compromised by identity politics to be able to do anything constructive on immigration.
You don’t have to agree with those positions and I don’t plan on defending them. This is just what I’ve picked up in trying to understand why so many people vote for Trump.
There are some important parallels and lessons here for the next Canadian election. Trudeau and the Liberals parallel the cultural elitism of the establishment Democrats. Singh appeals more to the identity politics culture warriors than he does to the working class. This is a big departure from the NDP’s traditional roots in the labour movement. And Poilievre is Trump’s mini-me. So, what can we do in Canada to avoid a repeat of the left’s failure in the US election? Doubling down on identity politics and cultural elitism isn’t going to go well.
Can’t disagree with anything you said. You’re a hero for watching the Joe Rogan interview, I cannot listen to Trump for more than 5 minutes at a time, it breaks my brain trying to parse what he’s actually saying instead of treating it like some sort of Rorshach test.
I will say he gets the vibes. The US economy is doing pretty well. They’ve done better on inflation than any other OECD country that I’m aware of, their economy is growing, unemployment is low. But… it feels bad. It feels bad for too many people just trying to pay the rent and put food on the table. Is it because too much of that wealth has accrued in the pockets of the wealthy? Maybe, but paying more for a place to live and more for dinner tonight have a visceral reality that talk of housing starts doesn’t.
We’re in a similar position in Canada. I would actually point to the Daycare program as one of the most significant programs that’s helped working class families in years, but I also don’t think it matters really, because I don’t know how well the LPC ahs captured the “vibes” of it.
I think a lot of people think trump is good for economy for reasons like stripping away environmental regulations. Sure it might make a company cheaper to operate without regulations but often times it is exponentially more expensive to deal with the damages.
That’s way more complex thinking that what people actually do around this. They think he’s good for the econony because he’s rich, or at least plays rich on TV.
CEOs may see him as good for business because rhey believe he’ll make running their businesses cheaper, but the average Trump voter just sees “rich = good with money”, because most people ultimately believe that the world is on some level fair, and if he’s rich it must mean he got there fairly.
The other thing that I’d add to this is that, post-pandemic, a lot of people have felt the pinch of shifting economic realities. A lot of decisions from years and decades past that have masked the costs neoliberal policies and corporate cost cutting have come home to roost, and it has left people feeli g stressed out and resentful.
They feel their quality of life and standard of living starting to slip, and they see the injustice of the system supporting their bosses, their landlords, and their banks, but not them. And they see who’s currently at the wheel.
Because of this, they also grow increasingly resentful towards discussions of people who need help. They feel like no one is there to help them as the world shifts around them, and yet they have smug culture warriors telling them that they’re worse than Hiitler for not thinking of people they’ll never meet, half a world away.
Trump and Milhouse will not help them, but at least they will not tell them that they are not deserving. And that’s more than what they perceive Democrats, the Liberals, or the NDP doing for them.
Thank you very much for this summary. Sadly I do feel some sort of understanding to a lot of Trump voters that genuinely thought they were making a good decision, and I think your summary reflects why people would feel that way. I 100% disagree with them, but I can understand their frustration and do see a lot of that reflected in Canadian politics as well.
I’m curious about the comment on Singh. As long as I’ve been following/supporting the NDP, I’ve always felt like they were more working class and really haven’t seen a whole lot of identity politics in their expressions. With the exception of maybe racism stuff, but I feel like given Jagmeet’s own (obvious) identity, this would be a central issue to him as a leader and to them as a party. I have seen them express in interviews about concerns for the working class many times otherwise.
You’re doing amazing work here. Not enough people are trying to make an effort to understand far right voters. You don’t have to agree with the policies, but you do still have to make an effort to understand why they appeal to people and makes them want to vote that way.
Liberal parties (Democrats, LPC, etc.) have been ignoring this for far too long and in my opinion, that’s why they keep losing. They lose and blame the voters for not seeing the world the way they do, but they don’t have any understanding or perspective of what the world looks like through the eyes of these voters. That’s why they don’t have any appeal and things are just going to continue getting worse as long as they continue ignoring the real issues that affects voters.
(Unless a real alternative party emerges, I suppose…)
I’m listening to the CBC right now and the prevailing opinion I’m hearing is that the Democrats lost because Biden waited too long to step aside. Talk about learning all the wrong lessons.
Watch how the Liberal narrative will emphasize that. They want Trudeau to step aside, and if (when) they lose to the Cons they’ll say it’s because Trudeau wouldn’t step aside. Or if he does step aside, he didn’t step aside early enough.
Of all the things they learned from this election, it’s how to make excuses when they lose. Somehow, my opinion of the Liberal party continues to sink even lower. I didn’t even think that was possible…
Yeah, I think a lot of the parallels in Canada is that the failure here is with the NDP, not the Liberals or Conservatives. Overall, those two parties haven’t changed, but at some point - post Layton - the NDP apparently decided to go down that same identity politics road, while similarly abandoning the general working class. Maybe they felt they just weren’t getting enough votes with the latter and there were enough who felt strongly about such social issues, but FFS they could have at least tried harder to support BOTH.
I’m honestly starting to wonder if the reason they’ve continued to support the Liberals is not so much a fear of z Conservative government, but rather if there’s some dirt the Liberals have on NDP leadership to keep them on a leash. Nothing else really explains why they’ve continued down this path of political suicide.
You’re absolutely correct in your conclusions. I’ve been trying to spread the same message and get my close friends to see this situation for what it is, and all I get for my efforts is called a libertarian (which I’m not), or be told I’m racist (I live in a blended family and friends group).
The leftist elitists in the USA love to scoff at the close-minded bigotry from the right, and pat themselves on the back about how open minded they are, while being completely closed off to anyone who tries to tell them how they’re alienating people, and causing strife with their identity politics.
Identity politics are poison. They seem purposefully engineered to sow division, instead of their stated goal of inclusion. I’ve tried to talk about this online a few times and gave up after being eviscerated by people parroting agenda points rather than actually engaging in a conversation.
The left, or the Democrats, or whatever you want to call them, have continually alienated huge portions of the population, portions required to win elections and actually change policies, with issues that affect miniscule portions of the population.
I want everyone to be treated equally. I want equality and inclusion. You don’t obtain that by telling 60% of the people in the country that their voices don’t matter, their opinions don’t matter, and their only job is to shut up and listen. Yes, it’s wise to listen more than you talk when someone who has experienced something you haven’t is sharing their experiences with you. But the overtly hostile fashion in which that message has been spread is offensive, and damaging, and alienating, and we saw the outcome of that last night.
I would warrant caution and nuance when considering the effect of IdPol on these things. It’s a term that’s been abused and bastardized to high heaven, and it’s a concept that the right has made ample, productive (for them) use of.
The politics of whiteness, the politics of masculinity, the politics of white masculinity, the politics of Christian conservatism, the politics of white nationalism, of Christian nationalism, of white-Christian nationalism, etc., are all IdPol. These are identity groups that the right has very successfully leaned on and groomed.
If you actually look at the Democrats, the Liberals, or even the NDP, what Identity Politics do they actually spout? What do they say that’s such a turn off, with respect to IdPol? It’s very little. Instead, what you actually see is them focusing on issues that matter to women, immigrants, and people of colour, but not to the exclusion of others.
But the right has used the fact that they speak of non-white, non-male, non-Christians at all and used it to reinforce the Identity Politics of the blue collar voter.
The aggrivated teenage sitting at the dinner table whining at you about how racist and imperialist the country is is not engaging in IdPol. They’re engaging in the process of coming to terms with the fact that the world is not how it has been portrayed to them. But the rural Canadian or American voting against their interest because the party that is going to fuck them or their community over the most has done the work to sure up their identity as white, rural, and working class.
Their politics and support follows their identity, not their interests or policy preferences.
That is Identity Politics. And you’re right, it’s toxic.
It’s just not what you were using the word to mean.
I don’t feel as bad as I thought I would. I’ve been an NDP voter all my life, so like most lefties I was shocked by Trump’s win in 2016, horrified by his COVID bullshit, and appalled by his conspiracy theories and violent rhetoric in the 2024 campaign. Trump is so obviously horrible that I kept asking the same question: how could HALF of the US electorate support him? I just can’t believe that HALF of America are fascist misogynistic white supremacists.
So, I started listening to alternative media. For example, I listened to Trump’s interview with Joe Rogan (yes, the whole three+ hours). I listened to Bari Weiss’s Honestly podcast, where she talks to disaffected progressives, and had a great debate between Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro. And many others.
So far, this is what I’ve come up with:
You don’t have to agree with those positions and I don’t plan on defending them. This is just what I’ve picked up in trying to understand why so many people vote for Trump.
There are some important parallels and lessons here for the next Canadian election. Trudeau and the Liberals parallel the cultural elitism of the establishment Democrats. Singh appeals more to the identity politics culture warriors than he does to the working class. This is a big departure from the NDP’s traditional roots in the labour movement. And Poilievre is Trump’s mini-me. So, what can we do in Canada to avoid a repeat of the left’s failure in the US election? Doubling down on identity politics and cultural elitism isn’t going to go well.
Can’t disagree with anything you said. You’re a hero for watching the Joe Rogan interview, I cannot listen to Trump for more than 5 minutes at a time, it breaks my brain trying to parse what he’s actually saying instead of treating it like some sort of Rorshach test.
I will say he gets the vibes. The US economy is doing pretty well. They’ve done better on inflation than any other OECD country that I’m aware of, their economy is growing, unemployment is low. But… it feels bad. It feels bad for too many people just trying to pay the rent and put food on the table. Is it because too much of that wealth has accrued in the pockets of the wealthy? Maybe, but paying more for a place to live and more for dinner tonight have a visceral reality that talk of housing starts doesn’t.
We’re in a similar position in Canada. I would actually point to the Daycare program as one of the most significant programs that’s helped working class families in years, but I also don’t think it matters really, because I don’t know how well the LPC ahs captured the “vibes” of it.
I think a lot of people think trump is good for economy for reasons like stripping away environmental regulations. Sure it might make a company cheaper to operate without regulations but often times it is exponentially more expensive to deal with the damages.
That’s way more complex thinking that what people actually do around this. They think he’s good for the econony because he’s rich, or at least plays rich on TV.
CEOs may see him as good for business because rhey believe he’ll make running their businesses cheaper, but the average Trump voter just sees “rich = good with money”, because most people ultimately believe that the world is on some level fair, and if he’s rich it must mean he got there fairly.
Before the EPA the Cuyahoga River was at times more fire than water.
The other thing that I’d add to this is that, post-pandemic, a lot of people have felt the pinch of shifting economic realities. A lot of decisions from years and decades past that have masked the costs neoliberal policies and corporate cost cutting have come home to roost, and it has left people feeli g stressed out and resentful.
They feel their quality of life and standard of living starting to slip, and they see the injustice of the system supporting their bosses, their landlords, and their banks, but not them. And they see who’s currently at the wheel.
Because of this, they also grow increasingly resentful towards discussions of people who need help. They feel like no one is there to help them as the world shifts around them, and yet they have smug culture warriors telling them that they’re worse than Hiitler for not thinking of people they’ll never meet, half a world away.
Trump and Milhouse will not help them, but at least they will not tell them that they are not deserving. And that’s more than what they perceive Democrats, the Liberals, or the NDP doing for them.
Thank you very much for this summary. Sadly I do feel some sort of understanding to a lot of Trump voters that genuinely thought they were making a good decision, and I think your summary reflects why people would feel that way. I 100% disagree with them, but I can understand their frustration and do see a lot of that reflected in Canadian politics as well.
I’m curious about the comment on Singh. As long as I’ve been following/supporting the NDP, I’ve always felt like they were more working class and really haven’t seen a whole lot of identity politics in their expressions. With the exception of maybe racism stuff, but I feel like given Jagmeet’s own (obvious) identity, this would be a central issue to him as a leader and to them as a party. I have seen them express in interviews about concerns for the working class many times otherwise.
You’re doing amazing work here. Not enough people are trying to make an effort to understand far right voters. You don’t have to agree with the policies, but you do still have to make an effort to understand why they appeal to people and makes them want to vote that way.
Liberal parties (Democrats, LPC, etc.) have been ignoring this for far too long and in my opinion, that’s why they keep losing. They lose and blame the voters for not seeing the world the way they do, but they don’t have any understanding or perspective of what the world looks like through the eyes of these voters. That’s why they don’t have any appeal and things are just going to continue getting worse as long as they continue ignoring the real issues that affects voters.
(Unless a real alternative party emerges, I suppose…)
I’m listening to the CBC right now and the prevailing opinion I’m hearing is that the Democrats lost because Biden waited too long to step aside. Talk about learning all the wrong lessons.
Watch how the Liberal narrative will emphasize that. They want Trudeau to step aside, and if (when) they lose to the Cons they’ll say it’s because Trudeau wouldn’t step aside. Or if he does step aside, he didn’t step aside early enough.
Of all the things they learned from this election, it’s how to make excuses when they lose. Somehow, my opinion of the Liberal party continues to sink even lower. I didn’t even think that was possible…
Yeah, I think a lot of the parallels in Canada is that the failure here is with the NDP, not the Liberals or Conservatives. Overall, those two parties haven’t changed, but at some point - post Layton - the NDP apparently decided to go down that same identity politics road, while similarly abandoning the general working class. Maybe they felt they just weren’t getting enough votes with the latter and there were enough who felt strongly about such social issues, but FFS they could have at least tried harder to support BOTH.
I’m honestly starting to wonder if the reason they’ve continued to support the Liberals is not so much a fear of z Conservative government, but rather if there’s some dirt the Liberals have on NDP leadership to keep them on a leash. Nothing else really explains why they’ve continued down this path of political suicide.
You’re absolutely correct in your conclusions. I’ve been trying to spread the same message and get my close friends to see this situation for what it is, and all I get for my efforts is called a libertarian (which I’m not), or be told I’m racist (I live in a blended family and friends group).
The leftist elitists in the USA love to scoff at the close-minded bigotry from the right, and pat themselves on the back about how open minded they are, while being completely closed off to anyone who tries to tell them how they’re alienating people, and causing strife with their identity politics.
Identity politics are poison. They seem purposefully engineered to sow division, instead of their stated goal of inclusion. I’ve tried to talk about this online a few times and gave up after being eviscerated by people parroting agenda points rather than actually engaging in a conversation.
The left, or the Democrats, or whatever you want to call them, have continually alienated huge portions of the population, portions required to win elections and actually change policies, with issues that affect miniscule portions of the population.
I want everyone to be treated equally. I want equality and inclusion. You don’t obtain that by telling 60% of the people in the country that their voices don’t matter, their opinions don’t matter, and their only job is to shut up and listen. Yes, it’s wise to listen more than you talk when someone who has experienced something you haven’t is sharing their experiences with you. But the overtly hostile fashion in which that message has been spread is offensive, and damaging, and alienating, and we saw the outcome of that last night.
I would warrant caution and nuance when considering the effect of IdPol on these things. It’s a term that’s been abused and bastardized to high heaven, and it’s a concept that the right has made ample, productive (for them) use of.
The politics of whiteness, the politics of masculinity, the politics of white masculinity, the politics of Christian conservatism, the politics of white nationalism, of Christian nationalism, of white-Christian nationalism, etc., are all IdPol. These are identity groups that the right has very successfully leaned on and groomed.
If you actually look at the Democrats, the Liberals, or even the NDP, what Identity Politics do they actually spout? What do they say that’s such a turn off, with respect to IdPol? It’s very little. Instead, what you actually see is them focusing on issues that matter to women, immigrants, and people of colour, but not to the exclusion of others.
But the right has used the fact that they speak of non-white, non-male, non-Christians at all and used it to reinforce the Identity Politics of the blue collar voter.
The aggrivated teenage sitting at the dinner table whining at you about how racist and imperialist the country is is not engaging in IdPol. They’re engaging in the process of coming to terms with the fact that the world is not how it has been portrayed to them. But the rural Canadian or American voting against their interest because the party that is going to fuck them or their community over the most has done the work to sure up their identity as white, rural, and working class.
Their politics and support follows their identity, not their interests or policy preferences.
That is Identity Politics. And you’re right, it’s toxic.
It’s just not what you were using the word to mean.
Great insights!