This is where I think the conversations always break down on ml.
You fervently assert things like a 95% approval rating while selectively ignoring the “social credit” system that punishes people who don’t approve. You use large party employment to justify some kind of perfect overlap between the proletariat and the government. Where do you think the real decision making is done? Do you think it isn’t a tiny fraction of party elite? How would you view these things through the lens of manufactured consent?
I don’t think it’s any better in a western capitalist system, but I’m not going to deceive myself into thinking that china is running fundamentally differently than any western oligarchy.
The “social credit system” was made to hold financial and privately-run institutions to account, and prevent companies and organizations from committing fraud and polluting the environment. Even US capitalist mouthpieces like foreign policy agree with this.
The government does assign universal social credit codes to companies and organizations, which they use as an ID number for registration, tax payments, and other activities, while all individuals have a national ID number. The existing social credit blacklists use these numbers, as do almost all activities in China. But these codes are not scores or rankings. Enterprises and professionals in various sectors may be graded or ranked, sometimes by industry associations, for specific regulatory purposes like restaurant sanitation. However, the social credit system does not itself produce scores, grades, or assessments of “good” or “bad” social credit. Instead, individuals or companies are blacklisted for specific, relatively serious offenses like fraud and excessive pollution that would generally be offenses anywhere. To be sure, China does regulate speech, association, and other civil rights in ways that many disagree with, and the use of the social credit system to further curtail such rights deserves monitoring.
These are basic things the US used to do in the 1950s, but now stopped any pretense of doing. Any regulation against business is considered “authoritarian” now.
Meanwhile in the US, having a bad credit score can prevent you from buying a car, house, or even renting an apartment.
China uses these scores to hold financial institutions to account, while the US uses scores to prevent ordinary citizens from getting housing. One country is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the other a dictatorship of capital.
It’s more that liberals like yourself directly ignoring facts and statistics while blindly repeating vague and unsourced claims of “China Bad,” because it lets you remain comfortable in your pre-existing worldview. Communists do not have such luxury, which is why they seemingly always have endless sources on hand. In your comment here, as an example, you discredit the CPC’s approval with no source. However, if we ask Harvard themselves about the results of their study, they say “We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. Second, the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being, which suggests that support could be undermined by the twin challenges of declining economic growth and a deteriorating natural environment.” This directly goes against your claims of “social credit” preventing this, moreover the “Orwellian Social Credit System” you hint at doesn’t even exist, at least not in the manner you imply it does.
You are directly decieving yourself because you license yourself to. If you actually looked at real sources and didn’t reject them reflexively, instead of accepting bourgeois media at face value, you’d sit much closer to where I do. You should read False Witnesses and Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing.” Both are excellent examples of why people don’t change their minds when seeing indisputable evidence, they willingly go along with narratives that they find more comfortable. It explains the outright anger liberals express when anticommunism is debunked. That doesn’t mean Communists don’t do the same thing, but as we live in a liberal dominated west (most likely, assuming demographics) this happens to a much lesser extent because liberalism is that which supplies these “licenses” to go along, while Communism requires hard work to begin to accept. This explains the mountains of sources Communists keep on hand, and the lack thereof from liberals who argue from happenstance and vibes.
And then the second pillar of why any ml argument falls apart: the insistence that any concerns about how china operates implies that the speaker of those concerns is defending Western status quo.
I can envision a more perfect system than China, and guess what, it isn’t anything close to western capitalism. I’ll even go so far as to say that in terms of absolute delta, China may already be closer. Creating a false dichotomy, however, in which it is argued any criticism or concern about China is actually a veiled attempt to maintain the status quo of western capitalism is ridiculous.
I mean, look at the overwhelming response to the murder of that CEO. Can we not accept that this is at the very least a significant criticism of the USAs runaway capitalist system? Does that imply an overwhelming desire for a Chinese-styled government? No? Somehow it appears to be empirically the case that people can express criticism against a system without existing in some binary state which implies full throated support of exactly 1 alternative that’s been constructed as part of this false dichotomy that ml users live and die by.
No, I am implying that among western “leftists” there is a desire to more openly accept vague anti-China claims in a manner that goes against real solidarity with Socialists globally, and they do so because they don’t want to imagine anywhere else could be on a better track.
Western leftists literally never shut up about the Nordic countries so I must flatly reject the premise that the justification is the preservation some vestigial notion of Manifest Destiny
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, then… But I agree that we’re just bouncing off supporting arguments rather than directly defending or refuting a central thesis.
My understanding of your point was that western critisms of China are either at best misinformed, but in general the result of trying to preserve the idea that “the west is in front, so everyone else must be behind”.
I fundamentally reject this specific formulation because the result of that formulation is that there exists no valid criticism of China.
So, let’s just settle this: what would you say is the most uncomfortablely valid criticism of China?
I’ll take you at your word that these are the 3 things that you’re most uncomfortable with.
I sincerely hope that these are the three most problematic things, because if true, China really would be nearly a utopia, and I sincerely want such a place to exist.
Considering the 2nd point came with the precondition that you think it’s a problem that is solving itself, and the third is that China isn’t projecting its power enough globally, there is only one outstanding issue for the proletariat being that the economy isn’t centrally planned enough.
With full sincerity I guess if this is your biggest gripe, I don’t know how I reconcile that personally with China’s current and historical trend of net negative migration.
It’s probably clear to you by now, but I am not an expert on China, but I am absorbing and am curious of your perspective.
To me, it appears like with such a rosy view but negative net migration, there must be a reason that statistically speaking, more people would rather leave the system than join it. In the same way that we can hypothesize the existence of a celestial body we haven’t directly observed by it’s gravitational effects on what we know, I wonder why we see net negative migration if there are essentially by your view no material unaddressed issues for the working class?
And I genuinely am asking this question in good faith. I’ll accept with respect any answer you give. In your view is it a global smear campaign that holds people back from migrating or something? Are the people who leave being seduced by false promises? Do you live in China, and if not, what’s holding you back?
Because I’ll say, you and I could comisserate extensively on the failings of western capitalism. I could easily lay out 50 significant issues with the societal organization of most western capitalist democracies. I’m sure you could too. That you only really see one significant unaddressed issue, regardless of if I agree with it, is compelling.
This is where I think the conversations always break down on ml.
You fervently assert things like a 95% approval rating while selectively ignoring the “social credit” system that punishes people who don’t approve. You use large party employment to justify some kind of perfect overlap between the proletariat and the government. Where do you think the real decision making is done? Do you think it isn’t a tiny fraction of party elite? How would you view these things through the lens of manufactured consent?
I don’t think it’s any better in a western capitalist system, but I’m not going to deceive myself into thinking that china is running fundamentally differently than any western oligarchy.
The “social credit system” was made to hold financial and privately-run institutions to account, and prevent companies and organizations from committing fraud and polluting the environment. Even US capitalist mouthpieces like foreign policy agree with this.
These are basic things the US used to do in the 1950s, but now stopped any pretense of doing. Any regulation against business is considered “authoritarian” now.
Meanwhile in the US, having a bad credit score can prevent you from buying a car, house, or even renting an apartment.
China uses these scores to hold financial institutions to account, while the US uses scores to prevent ordinary citizens from getting housing. One country is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the other a dictatorship of capital.
You’re choosing to continue deceiving yourself that China is not fundamentally different from any western oligarchy, got it.
It’s more that liberals like yourself directly ignoring facts and statistics while blindly repeating vague and unsourced claims of “China Bad,” because it lets you remain comfortable in your pre-existing worldview. Communists do not have such luxury, which is why they seemingly always have endless sources on hand. In your comment here, as an example, you discredit the CPC’s approval with no source. However, if we ask Harvard themselves about the results of their study, they say “We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. Second, the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being, which suggests that support could be undermined by the twin challenges of declining economic growth and a deteriorating natural environment.” This directly goes against your claims of “social credit” preventing this, moreover the “Orwellian Social Credit System” you hint at doesn’t even exist, at least not in the manner you imply it does.
You are directly decieving yourself because you license yourself to. If you actually looked at real sources and didn’t reject them reflexively, instead of accepting bourgeois media at face value, you’d sit much closer to where I do. You should read False Witnesses and Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing.” Both are excellent examples of why people don’t change their minds when seeing indisputable evidence, they willingly go along with narratives that they find more comfortable. It explains the outright anger liberals express when anticommunism is debunked. That doesn’t mean Communists don’t do the same thing, but as we live in a liberal dominated west (most likely, assuming demographics) this happens to a much lesser extent because liberalism is that which supplies these “licenses” to go along, while Communism requires hard work to begin to accept. This explains the mountains of sources Communists keep on hand, and the lack thereof from liberals who argue from happenstance and vibes.
And then the second pillar of why any ml argument falls apart: the insistence that any concerns about how china operates implies that the speaker of those concerns is defending Western status quo.
I can envision a more perfect system than China, and guess what, it isn’t anything close to western capitalism. I’ll even go so far as to say that in terms of absolute delta, China may already be closer. Creating a false dichotomy, however, in which it is argued any criticism or concern about China is actually a veiled attempt to maintain the status quo of western capitalism is ridiculous.
I mean, look at the overwhelming response to the murder of that CEO. Can we not accept that this is at the very least a significant criticism of the USAs runaway capitalist system? Does that imply an overwhelming desire for a Chinese-styled government? No? Somehow it appears to be empirically the case that people can express criticism against a system without existing in some binary state which implies full throated support of exactly 1 alternative that’s been constructed as part of this false dichotomy that ml users live and die by.
No, I am implying that among western “leftists” there is a desire to more openly accept vague anti-China claims in a manner that goes against real solidarity with Socialists globally, and they do so because they don’t want to imagine anywhere else could be on a better track.
Western leftists literally never shut up about the Nordic countries so I must flatly reject the premise that the justification is the preservation some vestigial notion of Manifest Destiny
Seems to me that you’re just trying to dig deeper out of a sense of contrarianism even if you largely agree with what I’m saying.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, then… But I agree that we’re just bouncing off supporting arguments rather than directly defending or refuting a central thesis.
My understanding of your point was that western critisms of China are either at best misinformed, but in general the result of trying to preserve the idea that “the west is in front, so everyone else must be behind”.
I fundamentally reject this specific formulation because the result of that formulation is that there exists no valid criticism of China.
So, let’s just settle this: what would you say is the most uncomfortablely valid criticism of China?
What do you mean “uncomfortably valid?” Some valid critiques I have include the following, but are not limited to:
The Market Sector has given rise to a large group of Chinese Liberals, who have some level of influence they should not have.
While improving gradually, LGBT protections are not as good as they could be, such as in Cuba.
The PRC could be doing more to dedollarize the world and throw off US Hegemony. Part of this is due to the influence of Chinese Liberals.
I’ll take you at your word that these are the 3 things that you’re most uncomfortable with.
I sincerely hope that these are the three most problematic things, because if true, China really would be nearly a utopia, and I sincerely want such a place to exist.
Considering the 2nd point came with the precondition that you think it’s a problem that is solving itself, and the third is that China isn’t projecting its power enough globally, there is only one outstanding issue for the proletariat being that the economy isn’t centrally planned enough.
With full sincerity I guess if this is your biggest gripe, I don’t know how I reconcile that personally with China’s current and historical trend of net negative migration.
It’s probably clear to you by now, but I am not an expert on China, but I am absorbing and am curious of your perspective.
To me, it appears like with such a rosy view but negative net migration, there must be a reason that statistically speaking, more people would rather leave the system than join it. In the same way that we can hypothesize the existence of a celestial body we haven’t directly observed by it’s gravitational effects on what we know, I wonder why we see net negative migration if there are essentially by your view no material unaddressed issues for the working class?
And I genuinely am asking this question in good faith. I’ll accept with respect any answer you give. In your view is it a global smear campaign that holds people back from migrating or something? Are the people who leave being seduced by false promises? Do you live in China, and if not, what’s holding you back?
Because I’ll say, you and I could comisserate extensively on the failings of western capitalism. I could easily lay out 50 significant issues with the societal organization of most western capitalist democracies. I’m sure you could too. That you only really see one significant unaddressed issue, regardless of if I agree with it, is compelling.