Isn’t the worst socialism still better than the best capitalism? Why try to destroy “revisionist” socialism when you have capitalism to destroy? Wouldn’t it be easier to fix a revisionist socialist country than trying to convince a capitalist one to be socialist?
To be frank, I’ve come to the position that the primary contradiction in Soviet relations with any of its fraternal socialist states was not principally any ideological discrepancies but the anxieties of its fellow state at being a victim of “big brother chauvinism” where its own individual state interests were subordinated to the interests of the socialist bloc - as set and determined by Moscow. I would say this contradiction is a leading reason for why the CPSU was unable to resolve any ideological gulfs with the other socialist parties it came into conflict with.
This was seen first with Yugoslavia, where Tito and the CPY tried to push for some market-based reforms and, as a result, was kicked out of the Comintern by Stalin, who also attempted to depose Tito from the CPY. Tito sympathizers were ousted from Communist Parties across socialist Europe and Yugoslavia was left to fend for itself, forcing it to ask the West for aid. To be a “Titoist” thereafter became the Comintern equivalent of the McCarthyist “Reds.” Churchill also accounted in his memoirs how Stalin decided with him to split Europe down the middle, leaving the Communist Party of Italy and the Greek Partisans out to dry in the Western orbit, where both were ultimately dismembered. Victor Grossman’s memoirs of his time in the DDR also recounts how a large amount of people were openly relieved that Stalin was succeeded by Khrushchev because of the reparations that was deeply hampering the state’s recovery and exacerbating its brain drain to West Germany.
This is not to say that the CPSU did not do a great deal for the assistance of its fellow socialist states and there are justifiable explanations for all of this conduct but nonetheless, just because something is justifiable doesn’t mean it fails to incur a cost. That cost was the view that Soviet interests took precedence over any Soviet aspirations of establishing equal fraternal relationships with its fellow socialist states and parties. In material terms, the USSR had a towering disparity in all measures - military, land, economy - and when this was coupled with perceptions of the CPSU’s “first among equals” attitude in the Comintern, it led to deep resentment that had catastrophic consequences for the socialist world.
It could be said that the CPSU’s attempt at this “inter-state democratic centralism” can be seen charitably as a “well-intentioned” attempt to take the first step towards that internationalist dream of breaking down the divisions of the states that divide humanity, but this was an ideal ahead of its time and failed to consider the conditions of its fellow socialist states. Most (actually, every single one with the sole exception of the DDR) of the newly socialist states were countries with a long history of foreign subjugation and torturous struggles for their sovereignty and when they finally achieved this sovereignty after WWII and yet were immediately expected to subordinate themselves to the CPSU’s leadership, it led to bitter feelings all around, even when Soviet side was acting with entirely good intentions, which was not universally the case.
This pattern continued all the way to the end of the USSR, with one of the most notorious cases being Honecker’s writing on how Gorbachev completely went past him to sell out socialist Germany by negotiating with the US and the West Germans without him. In short, there was a view that the CPSU failed to treat any of its fraternal socialist parties as equals, which is the source of the CPC’s accusation of the Soviet “big brother chauvinism” during the height of the split.
First impressions are important in all relationships and Sino-Soviet relations began distinctively on a bad note. The Comintern under Soviet direction demanded that the CPC join into the ranks of the KMT, which ended disastrously when Chiang Kai-Shek brutally purged all communists from the KMT and murdered thousands of communists and perceived communists. The understandable distrust from the CPC after the 1927 massacres led to a cooling down of inter-party relations and this lack of engagement led to a further lack of understanding which led to distrust from the CPSU when the CPC took power in 1949. It took Chinese military intervention in the Korean War for Stalin to finally trust Mao and see the CPC as a genuinely Communist Party - but the negative associations from the botched first impressions would be hard to let go of, as the later split would show.
When Deng Xiaoping met with Gorbachev in 1989, this is how he summarized his perspective on the Sino-Soviet split:
For many years there has been a question of how to understand Marxism and socialism. From the first Moscow talks in 1957 [among delegations from the Soviet Union, China and Hungary] through the first half of the 1960s, bitter disputes went on between our two parties. I was one of the persons involved and played no small role in those disputes. Now, looking back on more than 20 years of practice, we can see that there was a lot of empty talk on both sides. […]
[…] In 1963 I led a delegation to Moscow. The negotiations broke down. I should say that starting from the mid-1960s, our relations deteriorated to the point where they were practically broken off. I don’t mean it was because of the ideological disputes; we no longer think that everything we said at that time was right. The basic problem was that the Chinese were not treated as equals and felt humiliated. However, we have never forgotten that in the period of our First Five-Year Plan the Soviet Union helped us lay an industrial foundation.
If I have talked about these questions at length, it is in order to put the past behind us. We want the Soviet comrades to understand our view of the past and to know what was on our minds then. Now that we have reviewed the history, we should forget about it. That is one thing that has already been achieved by our meeting. Now that I have said what I had to say, that’s the end of it. The past is past.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/deng-xiaoping/1989/196.htm
I think that’s spot on. At the end of the day, USSR failed to treat other socialist projects with the respect they deserved.
the way many western communists think of the split is deeply inaccurate and damaging. cpc propagandists and their (former) allies in western intelligence services have pretty much succeeded in creating a ridiculously negative image of the ussrs role in that development. they accuse the soviet union of ridiculous bullshit like “social imperialism” while managing to completely ignore that it was the chinese side who were the ones to betray proletarian internationalism, anti-imperialism and possibly even socialism as a whole.
the continued propagation of these narratives in an era where the ussr sadly no longer exists to defend itself against them (in no small part due to the collaboration of the cpc-traitors with western imperialism) is a historic injustice and truly shows the levels of immorality those interests have sunk to.
the communist party of china (cpc), under the leadership of mao zedong and his successors, accused the soviet union of “social imperialism” and deviation from the principles of marxism. however, the beijing seemed to have forgotten how back during the war of resistance against japanese aggression the chinese were only surviving thanks to food aid from the soviet people, as well as the fact that it was the heroic red army that liberated manchuria for them. instead, in an unparalleled act of ingratitude, both to the ussr and to the domestic victims of japanese imperialist criminals, they decided to support the japanese, who by then were already loyal dogs of the americans, in the kuril Islands dispute and other international issues.
this, combined with their actions after the visit of notorious war criminal richard nixon to the chinese capital proves that their rhetoric in this regard was merely a smokescreen to cover up the chinese governments own betrayal of proletarian unity and its support for imperialist forces around the world.
generally speaking, the term “social imperialism” ironically fits much better to describe the policy of beijing, since for a good chunk of the xxth century they never failed to side with western imperialism while moralizing and pointing fingers at soviet bases in mongolia.
for example, after the chilean coup of 1973, the cpc provided diplomatic support to the fascist dictator augusto pinochet. this was in stark contrast to the soviet union, which had provided aid to allende’s government and condemned the putsch. similarly, the cpc provided support to the murderous apartheid regime in south africa, as well as their unita puppets in angola and the mujahedeen in afghanistan. these groups were all fighting against socialist or anti-imperialist forces, and the chinese supporting for them was a clear betrayal of socialist principles.
generally speaking, the soviet union always provided crucial support to anti-colonial movements around the world and was committed to helping aspiring socialist revolutions everywhere, oftentimes leading to pro-soviet states (in western and chinese propaganda erroneously referred as “soviet satellites”) having much higher living standards than the ussr itself. meanwhile, the only people willing to fight for the prc were reactionary clanists like siyaad barre, compradores like jonas savimbi, misogynist drug barons like gulbeddin hekmatyar and utter monsters like pol pot.
the other major line of chinese criticism towards the soviet union, the one regarding revisionism, sadly has quite a lot of truth to it. khrushchev and his collaborators had been incredibly damaging to world socialism and should obviously be denounced. nevertheless, beijings own record on revisionism was equally as bad, if not worse, than that of the ussr. after maos death in 1976, the cpc, under the leadership of deng xiaoping, implemented a series of neoliberal economic reforms that completely superseded even the worst excesses of khrushchevs liberalizations. these reforms, which included the privatization of state-owned enterprises and the opening up of china to foreign investment, led to the creation of a new capitalist class in china and dramatic widening of economic inequality. even today, the wages of the chinese proletariat are purposefully depressed for the benefit of western imperialist exploiters and many workers, especially those toiling abroad, have to live in conditions not even fit for animals. the county has an unemployment rate of 6% (youth unemployment rate at 20%), an issue literally unheard of in soviet society, and the right to strike has been removed from the constitution in the mid 1980s.
and as the cherry on top, beijing has established diplomatic relations with the illegal settler-colonial state of israel and has continued being the occupations biggest trading partner despite the current genocide. even in its darkest moments the ussr wouldnt have stopped so low.
currently, communists should still critically support the prc and its allies in any efforts against american hegemony, but for any historically literate person it should be clear that the soviet union was the correct side during the split. if the ussr hadnt been strangled to death by the west and their collaborators in china, the world would be a much better place.
the occupations biggest trading partner despite the current genocide.
This just seems blatantly untrue, do you have a source for this claim?
(sorry in advance of the wikispooks screen grab, its just a short summary of counter examples)
Yes they are asias largest trading partner (of non-military economic goods) but they are also leveraging them economically with sanctions and diplomatically support Palestine.
Its similar to how they export the most to America, they use their economic hard power in order to beat countries over the head with if they dont align with them in foreign policy goals, which in this instance is pro-palestine.
after maos death in 1976, the cpc, under the leadership of deng xiaoping, implemented a series of neoliberal economic reforms that completely superseded even the worst excesses of khrushchevs liberalizations. these reforms, which included the privatization of state-owned enterprises and the opening up of china to foreign investment, led to the creation of a new capitalist class in china and dramatic widening of economic inequality. even today, the wages of the chinese proletariat are purposefully depressed for the benefit of western imperialist exploiters and many workers, especially those toiling abroad, have to live in conditions not even fit for animals. the county has an unemployment rate of 6% (youth unemployment rate at 20%), an issue literally unheard of in soviet society, and the right to strike has been removed from the constitution in the mid 1980s.
I think the significance of these reforms is over-stated given that the modern CPC is flourishing because of these reforms. It fits neatly into my understanding of ‘progression thru capitalism to achieve socialism’ model that Deng put China on, rather than what I have come to understand as idealist ‘press the socialist button to become socialist’ (skipping capitalisms stages idealism)
I dont know how you can suggest China is capitulated when they routinely execute billionares, retain ideological control of capital for workers (90% house ownership rate, no significant landlord class, the best public infrastructure in the world ect)
The biggest criticism I do agree with you on is their foreign policy between 1950-1990, it kinda sucked, not gonna lie; I do believe Deng was the person who course corrected them though and I disagree with your wider assessment they betrayed socialism.
here is the world bank saying that china is “israels” main import partner, which means that they are one of the main suppliers of the occupations wealth and thus complicit in the economic aspects of apartheid. if the prc were to hypothetically withdraw from trade with them, the entity would experience a dramatic reduction in living standards and a lot of the settlers would probably leave.
and this isnt even a radical thing to demand! towards the end of the apartheid regime in south africa, even western capitalist governments began boycotting and sanctioning pretoria. isnt it understandable then, that i kinda expect a ostensibly socialist government that is literally in control of the worlds largest economy to give up on some profits in order to not support a genocide? bds should go both ways.
and the stern words that are shown in the screenshot are just that: stern words. they will mean literally nothing until the day some material action is actually going to be implemented. its not like i expect them to grow soviet-sized balls and give the pflp guns.
regarding the recent successes in the economic sphere, those are undeniable. but these could have also been achieved by “normal” socialist development. while such a path would have probably been slower, it wouldnt have brought with itself the all the baggage of problems, injustices and hardships that the dengist path did. instead of “one step back and two forward” it would just have been one forward.
the economic policies of the cpc after mao led to the re-emergence of capitalist relations in china. by allowing private ownership of enterprises and encouraging market competition, dengs reforms created a class of capitalists who were able to accumulate significant wealth and power. this is why i see them as a betrayal of socialist ideals and a step backwards towards the kind of economic exploitation that marx and lenin had fought against. while nowadays all the western stories about “chinese sweatshops” are usually complete bullshit, they were indeed accurate descriptions of labor conditions in the 80s, 90s and 00s.
allowing market forces to dictate economic outcomes was ultimately a step towards chaos and instability. while a certain subsection of the people were able to benefit handsomely from the new market-oriented economy, many others have been left behind. rural areas in particular suffered, as the government’s focus on urban development led to a widening gap between urban and rural incomes. this, in turn, led to social unrest and protests, which the government historically often dealt with unnecessarily harshly.
even today, after the xi jinping administration has thankfully alleviated some of the problems that i just described, the chinese economy still hasnt returned to a socialist framework.
your last point is something i honestly cant understand in any way possible. how the fuck do you think that deng “course corrected” chinese foreign policy?? should i describe to you the kinds of crimes that the mujahedeen or the khmer rouge were committing? deng easily had the worst foreign policy of any chinese leader and the damages are still noticable to this day. ffs he even let the cia build spy networks within china for use against the soviet union.
your last point is something i honestly cant understand in any way possible. how the fuck do you think that deng “course corrected” chinese foreign policy?? should i describe to you the kinds of crimes that the mujahedeen or the khmer rouge were committing? deng easily had the worst foreign policy of any chinese leader and the damages are still noticable to this day. ffs he even let the cia build spy networks within china for use against the soviet union.
Yeah I mean more towards the late 80s/90’s, China stopped becoming as blatant at this stuff; the support of khmer rogue remains a massive stain on China’s legacy though I agree, but I also think in reaction to it is why they are less keen to start sending guns to Palestine as they are aware of the lasting damage intervening in conflicts/acting like a hard power that had on themselves.
even today, after the xi jinping administration has thankfully alleviated some of the problems that i just described, the chinese economy still hasnt returned to a socialist framework.
It seems more or less where the USSR was in the late 70s, just with a more robust eco and less blood libel that the US is able to levy against it + more labor power.
while nowadays all the western stories about “chinese sweatshops” are usually complete bullshit, they were indeed accurate descriptions of labor conditions in the 80s, 90s and 00s.
Id argue this is more because of the economics levied onto them that they where a victim of really through stuff like the WEF leveraging their stagnating eco with population control measures and forcing them into that spot after the sino-soviet split due to otherwise being completely isolated on the world stage.
the economic policies of the cpc after mao led to the re-emergence of capitalist relations in china. by allowing private ownership of enterprises and encouraging market competition, dengs reforms created a class of capitalists who were able to accumulate significant wealth and power.
Which ones? I feel like you say this but without much to back it up, if there are capitalist classes above the CPC’s reach im not seeing it, at least in Xi’s current conception the highest class in China remains the worker elected party member due to the relations of violence and superstructre they have with it vs the lack of that inside China’s bougie class.
All things said I do agree with you in broad strokes, we shouldn’t with blind eyes support China, but I find it hard to levvy too much blame towards them for Isreal given the history and lessons they will have internalized with the failures of the Vietnam and Afghanistan interventions respectively, I think the upper cadre is doing a ‘China first, war through economics not physical force’ type of vibe. I dont know if we should want or expect China to act in similar ways to the USA where they do diplomacy through the bomb first.
While they could be doing more with Isreal and we should expect more they do still act as the bank for the axis of resistance id say, they just need to remain semi-neutral in order to not widen the alienation and narratives put forward by the west which would make their continued economic success harder, it is ultimately not much to do with them; they didnt start the war, and they have always diplomatically supported palestine and argued for the return of the golan heights to palestine.
Revisionist aren’t “bad” socialists, they are Liberals. What makes an idea revisionist is if it will reverse the progress of socialism and reinstate liberalism. Revisionists are more dangerous than liberals because they twist socialist language and ideas into supporting liberalism. They have negative revolutionary potential.
It was not about revisionism. It was nationalism of both countries
Personally, I think people exaggerate the “revisionist” ideology involved in the sino-soviet split as the only major factor at play, and they miss the other huge factor at play. China just came out of its Century of Humiliation. There was naturally an incredibly strong paranoia that they would get imperialized again. The Soviets did not help assuage these fears when they started to become heavily influential in China’s direct bordering neighbors; Korea, Mongolia, Vietnam, and later Afghanistan.
If the sino-soviet split was purely about Mao trying to fight Soviet “revisionism,” why did it continue after Mao’s administration ended? It’s not like the Deng administration adhered to the Stalin Model at all, yet the split remained. Well, actually relations did start to finally normalize in the later 1980s culminating in the Sino-Soviet Summit. The reason was that Gorbachev had agreed to some of China’s long-standing demands: to withdraw troops from places like Afghanistan and Mongolia.
You see, Mongolia is on China’s northern border, Vietnam+Cambodia is on China’s southern border, and Afghanistan is on China’s western border. (The eastern border is just the sea.) In all those three land borders, there was huge Soviet presence, so they were basically surrounded by the Soviet military and given their history, they were naturally paranoid of any big country surrounding them and viewed it as an existential threat.
China has a very long history of constantly breaking apart and reforming again in new eras. This process is very messy, a lot of violence and, more importantly, border changes. Many times in history that his led to Vietnam being invaded by China. So, naturally, the Vietnamese also are a bit fearful of China and do not have the best relationship.
Vietnam sought very close relations with the Soviets as a way to offset this, to the point of having a Soviet military presence in Vietnam. The Chinese did not like a foreign country having a military presence in a bordering power that they have mixed relations with, so they, under Mao’s administration, tried to ally closely with Cambodia to offset this.
However, Cambodia decided to attack Vietnam and then lost the war they started. As the losers, the Vietnamese got to replace their government, and thus Cambodia became a borderline Vietnamese puppet state, which increased tensions between China and the Soviets even more since this meant by proxy more Soviet influence in the region also extended to Cambodia. Just look at what the Cambodia’s People Party did after the USSR fell apart. They immediately flip-flopped from a Marxist-Leninist party to a right-wing monarchist party basically overnight. Unlike the Vietnamese, the Cambodian leadership didn’t really actually embrace Marxism-Leninism and were largely just propped up by a foreign power.
That’s why the Deng administration attacked Vietnam, not with the intent of actually conquering it but as a show of force to say basically “we’re still the boss of this region” since the fall of Cambodia meant a fall of Chinese influence in Cambodia and its replacement by Vietnamese influence and, by proxy, Soviet influence.
A lot of the conflict was realpolitik of China very untrustworthy of any other big powers due to the Century of Humiliation and viewing the Soviets as an expansionist power and thus an existential threat to China, and so relations did not really start normalizing until the Soviets agreed to reduce their influence in the region. But by that point the USSR was already falling apart.
Ideology did play a role but it was moreso tangential and not the fundamental reason for the split. Given China’s history, they were already very uneasy about a major power like the Soviets having so much influence in the region, and Mao viewed de-Stalinization as a betrayal, and so ideology played a role as a tipping point. But you then have to ask the question, why were the relations so fragile in the first place that de-Stalinization was enough to cause friendly powers to suddenly become incredibly hostile towards each other? It’s because the relations were already built upon sand, given China’s historical situation combined with the Soviet’s desire to expand their influence.
Doesn’t it sound just like pure paranoia from China? The Soviets growing their sphere of influence just meant more socialist countries. Did the Soviets ever just conquer countries and force them to adapt their system as China feared?
After reading everything that you wrote. To me this just sounded as erratic behavior which caused that instead of having more socialist countries with a Soviet-like system, we now have a world of capitalist countries with USA like system.
China wanted to prevent an influential country to not have sway in its region yet, now they have practically no socialist countries in the region. And of those, the second biggest one, Vietnam, doesn’t seem to like China.
I cannot stop, but think that China’s behavior on this sabotaged the spread of socialism in Asia and achieved the total opposite of what they wanted. They now have another country, which is far far worse, being very influential in the region, USA.
I typed a bunch of stuff and then just remembered: the USSR backed the KMT (fascists) over the CPC in the Chinese civil war. (side note KMT also got USA backing, and continued beyond KMT retreating to Taiwan into the formation of the UN and beyond) That relationship already started on a bad foot, I’d say paranoia was absolutely warranted.
If you take a closer look into the relationship of the two countries in the area of scientific cooperation, I think it might highlight/magnify the issues from China’s POV.
Sovereignty was a core issue/theme for China under Century of Humiliation, and brushing that off as paranoia is making light of that… perhaps the Soviets did not understand why sovereignty (and why if China joined under the USSR banner it would lose a good chunk of hard-won sovereignty) is so important to a people who struggled under a series of occupations. But because of that decision to not join the USSR, Chinese scientists who went to the USSR for scientific cooperation/exchanges were met with gatekeeping from tech as well as patronizing attitudes.
Each country came out of their own revolutions in a different place. USSR was already industrialized while China was largely agrarian. China had a lot to catch up on in terms of industrialization and research/technology. From China’s POV, if their supposed ally was truly for advancing socialism/communism, why withhold an ally from advancement in development? Because you don’t follow the exact same model or fold into the same (a larger) body? I’d say that if you want to characterize China as paranoid here, it would also apply to the Soviets. This experience clearly influences China’s modern foreign policy, from covid vaccines to infrastructure loans.
Maybe. In one Chinese textbook I read, the author routinely criticized the USSR’s policies in the way it enforced socialism in other countries, usually enforcing a vision of socialism of specifically Russian origin and oppressing local socialist movements who wanted to tailor socialism to their own material conditions. The Chinese did not like this kind of domination and were fearful of it because they did not want to become a Soviet puppet. I think the Soviets could have potentially made decisions to show it was less interested in domination, but I also do think it is fair to say the Chinese could have been less paranoid as well. It’s hard for me to specifically pick a side because both Mao and Khrushchev did/said some unhinged things at times.
Which are some of the unhinged things they have said?
For the USA it would of been logistically absurd for them to try invading China, they failed to even subdue Vietnam which could of served as a foothold if they did. Likewise, China at the time simply didn’t have the naval assets to challenge the USA’s established positions in the Pacific.
Revisionism is defined as modifications to Marxism that make it compatible with liberalism.
Intellectually, this is solvable through education. Historically, however, when a Marxist state becomes revisionist, as happened in the USSR, the only solution is revolution. This is because the ruling class of a revisionist state diverges from the working class via liberalism and reproduces a class distinction.
As we know, the only way we have discovered of resolving class contradiction requires revolution. Maybe there’s another way, but we haven’t found it.
In this way, the solution to a capitalist society and a revisionist society are the same: revolution .
This is why I think an idealogical foreign policy best
So how is Dengism not revisionism, though? I know that’s not part of this question, so you don’t have to answer, but the rise of Dengism after the Sino-Soviet split seems disingenuous to me.
Dengism doesn’t make changes to Marxism to make it compatible with liberalism.
What about Dengism makes you think it’s revisionist?
The acceptance of capitalist structures into Chinese communism. Granted, China 100% would not be the superpower it is today without those structures in place, but it still rubs me the wrong way that there are billionaires in China.
but it still rubs me the wrong way that there are billionaires in China.
Funny, I have the essay for you.
But just so you know
It is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world and by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse.
(Note: As long as, of course, ruling class dynamics direct their efforts to it and adapt or not to this change)
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
Would it be ripe time for China to prolly go socialist, yes, but the only way I see Communism overcoming and becoming the dominant system as it is, is if it the previous rivaling economic mode of production of Capitalism is destroyed, with only feudal and lower remnants to be dealt with. However, Neoliberalism still reigns as far as I’m concerned, albeit under a weakened condition.
Socialism is the process of building communism. Its a dangerous path fraught with dangers on all sides. Deng made market reforms to preserve the forward momentum of the socialist project in China. Had he not made some market reforms it is more than likely that China would not survived as a socialist state at all.
Deng did not accept capitalist structures into the country. At the end of the day no matter how rich individual billionaires might be the Party still controls the central bank and the means of production. They are still subject to the will of the people.