I don’t know why it took me so long
Reddit is still a pipeline for the left. Sure it’s got a bunch of libs and the admins do what they can to astroturf it but if we all just ran away and made a safe space we’d never bring in new people to teach. I really don’t get people acting like it’s a badge of honor for leaving. Especially when leaving subs that are full of libs takes as much time as clicking a button.
Just today there’s an incredibly well received post on the late stage capitalism sub about the western propaganda about Tiananmen square.
A few years back this would have never been received so well. We don’t get more communists by sitting in an echo chamber. I use Lemmygrad like a vacation spot where I can go to relax amongst comrades, but I still venture out to try and bring more people to our side.
I think it’s fine to use it if you can get value out of it in that way (posted about that before here): https://lemmygrad.ml/post/6806940/5857159
But it can also be used in an unhealthy way that isn’t making any discernible difference, or is hurting your own mental health more than it is persuading others. And I’d hesitate to agree with an argument like “but if we all just ran away and made a safe space we’d never bring in new people to teach”. Similar to how you aren’t going to reform the empire in the offices of Raytheon, you aren’t going to change the minds of the often western chauvinist masses on largely empire-controlled Reddit. You can still influence people, yes (especially via a holdout sub like LateStageCapitalism), but look at the stark difference in takeaways in a few days of some USians being on Red Note compared to TikTok, how fast some had their views about China upended; some things are more effective than others, is the point there. We all have to pick our battles at times, whether it’s as individuals or group efforts, and you can’t be everywhere at all times (unless I guess you have the resources of the alphabet agencies with overt and covert operations across the world, but even then, it’s not literally everywhere, just a lot).
This is speaking kind of generally anyway. I haven’t seen anyone advocating being in an echo chamber as a whole. But even on that point, could you imagine the argument “echo chamber is bad” in the context of earlier China developing its own sovereign tech instead of getting awash in western controlled platforms? In some contexts, it’s good to cut off garbage. I don’t think there’s really a generalizable principle that it’s always harmful to be in an “echo chamber”; the idea it is seems like an artifact of liberal “marketplace of ideas” thought. In most contexts in human history, people would have been in relatively small and confined ranges of space and thought for most of their lives. As communists, sure, we have to engage with those who aren’t if we want to broaden things, but that doesn’t always have to mean wading into the most reactionary cesspools. And even among those who do identify as communists, there is always work to be done in theory and practice, and ensuring people who are on board are educated and practiced in it well; not slipping around in liberalism, etc.
I didn’t set out to write a wall of text, but likes typical communist, I did. Anyway:
It doesn’t matter if you can’t change the minds of the masses, so long as you can change the minds of a few. So imo, it’s a bed argument to imply it’s futile to try. It’s no different than doomer speak of “well if we can’t fix everything we might as well not fix anything.”
I was a little dumb China genocide supporting liberal dipshit for years before leftist subs on Reddit planted the seeds of communism in my brain. All because of leftists memes opening my mind up to the ideas. The evolution of many left subs on there is literal proof that it’s still capable of moving people left. Even a year ago the Deprogram sub was scared to talk about China. Now it’s members are openly pro China. And just the fact that that’s happening in some circles is better than none. RedNote was a massive eye opener to a lot of people. Communists on Reddit helped spread that information around to eyes that would otherwise have never seen it. We had a few posts about it here, to people that didn’t need to really see it. Meanwhile there were dozens of posts reaching the front page on reddit from all manner of subreddits. Reddit helped get more people on rednote which in turn opened more eyes. This is literally how pipelines work. Reddit didn’t open their eyes, rednote did, but they were exposed to rednote because of reddit. We gain nothing by saying it’s a lost cause and leaving.
This is why echo chambers are bad if it’s the only place you go. Now I may not have been entirely correct in suggesting Lemmygrad Is an echo chamber, but if we all have this “only come here and every other place is bad” mentality we risk doing that eventually. It’s one reason why the admins don’t block other instances by default. To prevent us from going down that path. To add to this, claiming China as an example of an echo chamber is also not accurate imo. There’s a difference in blocking out hostile narrative from outside sources, and not allowing differing narrative at all. China blocked hostile narrative from places that wanted to destroy them, and to build their own internal platforms. But China is also a massive, diverse place, with dozens of ethnicities, many languages, and many differing ideals. Saying “we are going to develop our own forums so all our diversity can flourish, and we can teach and spread our ideas, without the hostilities of our enemies” is not an echo chamber. Furthermore they are now moving towards opening up even further. To allow their people to spread their ideas and knowledge. That’s the exact opposite of what many here are doing by trying to cut out more outside contact.
And at no point did I say we needed to wade into the cesspool of conservative and lib BS subs. I, in fact, said the opposite and suggested blocking those subs. The entirety of my comment is I think it’s silly to run away from that site entirely, just because there’s libs and chuds there, on subs that can be blocked. There’s enough information there in leftist circles that isn’t posted here that makes it worth popping in. And every communist voice over there, helps increase chances that maybe someones eyes gets opened.
So imo, it’s a bed argument to imply it’s futile to try. It’s no different than doomer speak of “well if we can’t fix everything we might as well not fix anything.”
Never something I argued at all. Like not even close. I literally linked to you a post where I said “If someone can get value out of it / can deprogram others effectively on there, more power to em. But for me, it was a healthy one to cut off.” What I’m saying is that some things are more effective than others. It’s little different in principle than saying that it’s more effective to try to recruit among the working class than to try to go convince Bill Gates that communism is good. I am also saying that people are in different places, both literally and figuratively, and it makes no sense to be pushing a one-size-fits-all, all or nothing narrative that we need to all be on reddit of all places and we’re being “silly” if we aren’t.
And at no point did I say we needed to wade into the cesspool of conservative and lib BS subs.
The entirety of my comment is I think it’s silly to run away from that site entirely, just because there’s libs and chuds there, on subs that can be blocked.
Then you are arguing being in an echo chamber??? Just one that is a compartmentalized part of reddit.
It doesn’t matter if you can’t change the minds of the masses, so long as you can change the minds of a few.
I can in good faith assume you meant in context “you don’t need to be popular on the western internet to have a net positive persuasive impact”, but at a glance, it’s reading more like a statement on recruiting in general. And in that context, although you technically “don’t need to change the minds of the masses prior to upending an existing system and replacing it with something else”, in the sense that it’s not like you need all of them on board, you absolutely, 100% do need to change people’s minds on a broad scale to sustain anything after that event happens. And part of that comes from real material help in their lives, not just words. But it cannot be overstated how important it is to achieve popularity at some point. In the western empire, we’re often working from a shit place as popularity goes, but that doesn’t make it any less important overall.
And returning to China for a moment:
Saying “we are going to develop our own forums so all our diversity can flourish, and we can teach and spread our ideas, without the hostilities of our enemies” is not an echo chamber. Furthermore they are now moving towards opening up even further. To allow their people to spread their ideas and knowledge. That’s the exact opposite of what many here are doing by trying to cut out more outside contact.
Except China has power now. Powerful, sustainable systems both in their own country and in partnerships across the world. Many of us stumping it out on the western internet probably don’t. We’re trying to work out the answers in an unprecedented situation. We can’t afford to be universalizing sloppy doctrines that we pass along on message boards. We need to be more flexible than that and we need to be both effective and compassionate. And we can’t be effective if we don’t examine what’s going on beyond anecdote and a sprint mentality.
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Lemmy for having a much smaller population is a fairly viable alternative to reddit.
Reddit in recent years has gotten to the point where a lot of the content is regurgitated.
Lemmy seems like it has a lot more quality over quanity. And I really appreciate that.
Also the fact lemmy is federated gives it a lot more sustainability imho
Reddit (and other mainstream spaces) seems to have banned a ton over Gaza and Luigi, will be interesting to see where folks end up.
Bluesky seems to be gaining traction, but doubt they will permit much.
Bluesky is :lib: as hell sadly, and the mute feature lets you follow what everybody else blocks. Way too easy to cover your ears and go lalalala that way.
Bluesky is this type of energy
