- cross-posted to:
- genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
- politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
- politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world
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Umm… Even us on .world agree that Dems are controlled opposition and useless if we want any actual change.
Join us on hexbear and lemmygrad
Can you criticize Israel here or is it full of pro genecide bots trying to run a narrative?
You can on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net
This place is pretty far left dude lol. You wont find anyone pro israel here.
I mean, i usually get modest upvotes when i talk about this sort of thing. I believe if we actually want to stop this fall into authoritarianism, our first step is to take control of the Democratic Party. How do you do that? Don’t vote for Neo liberals and ignore everyone who cries that unless you vote blue no matter who the republicans will win. That obviously doesn’t work, and democrats work against leftist policies. They whole time leading up to the election it was all “now is not the time” well i played their game and lost. Now it’s time.
The only instance I’ve noticed that on is midwest.social.
Well everybody already knows that. Like… The power dynamics of “vote lesser evil, vote for minority candidate, vote for a compromising pseudo-progressive party because it’s still something, abstain and stay pure, better face true fascists than traitors, etc.” has been around since representative regimes emerged. Yet everyone has to find his/her political and moral stance in this shitshow. And answers will differ, sometimes for legitimate reasons, sometimes because of total bs. That’s all there is to it and it’s not exactly news.
Running a feckless campaign that refused to break with Biden’s admin on genocide is why we got this living hell. And running the most unlikeable woman in the country in 2016 is what made 2024 even a possibility.
Dems have fucked up terribly.
You’re absolutely right
That about sums it up.
I’ll vote Democrat as long as the alternative is fascism.
But fuck me, I’d love to vote for something else. And I’ll be honest, I have no idea how we get anything better.
I hear people saying to organize, but I can’t even imagine what that takes. I wonder if most Americans feel as helpless as I do in the face of this absolute bullshit.
I’ll vote Democrat as long as the alternative is fascism.
Unfortunately, much of what the Democrats represent is fascism.
Depends on what you mean by “much”? I’d argue the Democrats, on the whole, are liberals, not fascists.
I’d certainly prefer progressives and leftists though.
The support for Israel whole they genocide Palestine, thought… ugh. That can certainly be viewed as fascism, although where you draw the distinction between fascism and imperialism is up for debate. Not that imperialism is good either, just saying.
Liberals are the only people in history to vote for fascists to prevent class solidarity, and they’ve done it every time.
If you scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds.
The hard fact is that what the population votes for is what the population gets. They have completely given up their agency and just accept this impotent logic of “we’ll take whatever the most obvious/most apparently easy option is, that isn’t a Republican”. It’s a cyclical problem, the voters don’t care enough to force politicians to be good, and the politicians don’t care enough to court voters.
At the same time, “what the population votes for is what the population gets” ignores that we are often only presented with crappy options to start with.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say “you get what you fight for, and if you don’t fight you get what you get.”
I… haven’t really fought for anything. I believed the right things. I voted as best I could. But that clearly didn’t stop this.
I want to protect my ego and say I’m not a coward. Is there a distinction to be made between cowardice and simply not knowing what to do? I don’t know. I just know I’m trying my best, but maybe that’s just not enough.
At the same time, “what the population votes for is what the population gets” ignores that we are often only presented with crappy options to start with.
It does not ignore that, rather it explicitly takes that into account.
The caveat to my statement would ONLY be “so long as we’re using this system.”
Please focus more on accurate logic.
The Democratic Party as a whole is like milk in your fridge that’s a week past its “best by” date.
The Republican Party is milk that a dog vomited on a Texas in July sidewalk.
We’re drinking one of them, because no alternative is possible in the near term.
It’s possible to vote for Democrats in 2026 and '28 and '30 and '32 while we build an alternative that can have electoral success, or takeover the Democratic Party from within or heck turn the Republican Party into a party worth supporting…
If all the milk in my fridge is spoiled, I throw it out. Maybe try that?
Here you go. This is an option. There is historical precedent. The tea party, to name one example.
Aye, we need a new system.
Great. Now you’re dying of thirst and the only milk left is the dog throw up vomit.
You can’t game the system by just saying you would do it better. That’s not how it works.
So keeping with your analogy, you’re going against ever bit of legitimate survival advice from every single person that has any knowledge on survival, and you think you’re still making the right choice?
In any situation where clean water isn’t an option you still don’t drink things that will sicken you.
You can work to purify whatever liquid you have (which can be the easiest or worst option), you can leave the area and try to find safer sources of water, or you can piss in your own mouth for a while and try to do one of the other two things in the mean time.
Voters like you, however, drink the spoiled milk, diarrhea in your own mouths, while promising if you keep doing it you’ll get around to purifying your own milk laden shits if you just keep funding genocide.
You can’t change a rotted system from within anymore than you can survive on contaminated water. At best you’re making your life so much worse while deluding yourself into thinking you’re doing the right thing.
Ok awesome, you’re across the street yelling saying to drink better milk without actually having any better milk. That doesn’t make the situation any better
Great. You just want people to drink spolied milk and are gloating because they don’t get a meaningful choice. You don’t care if you have to also have the dog vomit as long as no one gets a better choice than the spoiled milk, ever.
No, id much rather everyone on the block have better milk all around. But while you and your neighbors are refusing to drink the week old milk and dying of thirst, I’m over here trying to come up with an actual game plan with my spoiled milk instead of just screaming at others to drink better milk without actually having any source of better milk.
I don’t see your cow anywhere, but yet you act as if one’s going to magically appear cause you want it to.
No, id much rather everyone on the block have better milk all around.
Your positions indicate otherwise.
I’m over here trying to come up with an actual game plan with my spoiled milk
So far it looks like you’re gloating that no one has anything decent to drink.
80 million Dem voters (depicted as “crowd of NPCs” meme): “We are voting for Democrats in the near term because there is no other option”
I’ll keep saying it, the DNC is a sunk cost. You will keep trying to get them to stand up for you; get them to care; get them to fight. They will keep taking your energy; taking your money; and taking your vote and do nothing with it.
Big donors have recognized it. It’s time for the people to recognize it too. That means you.
The Democratic Party on the whole is captured by the donor class as a direct result of Citizens United. This has led to the hollowing out of the grassroots movements that are necessary for a large coalition of diverse interests to compete against the oligarchic cabal that makes up the GOP. This decimated the rank and file operatives that used networking within their communities to create political action and replaced it with endless fundraising emails, even as the primary process was corrupted (Hillary v Bernie, Biden v Bernie) to remove clout from the progressive wing of the party.
This led to the disillusionment of many Democratic voters that they have any say in the nomination process (the last time we had a real primary was Obama 2008 - almost 20 years ago), and the result is a slate of weak centrist candidates that for the most part play lip service to liberal cultural issues while blocking any real progressive economic progress.
The purpose of the Democratic Party apparatus as it exists in 2025 America is to capture and dilute revolutionary energy, so that people don’t take to the streets and demand real change. Yes, there are some independents and good folks within the Democratic Party trying to make a change (AOC, Jasmine Crocket) but the power players (Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries) are still refusing to stand up to the overt fascist takeover of our country.
The system as it exists will not change, and without change, we’re barreling into a fascism induced depression and possible civil war that will likely ravage the planet.
You would think committing a genocide would’ve settled the whole “lesser evil” thing, but the Blue MAGA cult insists there’s a way to commit lesser evil genocide now.
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Now this fucking guy is on .ml too?
The problem with people with like you is you listen to what the Dems say they’re doing, and don’t bother to confirm what Dems are actually doing. It’s why you’re all terrified of Trump’s immigration policies, and have no clue that Obama & Biden deported way more people.
You’re in a cult.
Does the way in which they are deported matter?
Is it better when they target people who are undocumented and provably so vs just checking out everyone tanner than a Mainer in the winter?
Do you see a difference between the specific policies of the two administrations?
Youre going to keep doing this lesser evil bit until the dems have you seig heiling while the republicans drain your blood for the ritual to begin Armageddon.
Hold up. You believe the Dems & GOP are swapping out frontline ICE and CBP agents during power transitions?
No, I think the administrators on top are switched and they give different marching orders. They enforce policy differently based on who is in the Oval office and that administration’s decisions. That is why there is a difference in how these deportations were carried out.
Do you think the top agents determine policy for an agency?
This is why no one takes Dem voters seriously. Y’all believe the press releases matter more than the material actions.
Battered spouse syndrome
the only voters that aren’t taken seriously in the USA are leftists and if you doubt that for a second please point out the progressive party that controls anything in this shithole.
My whole point is the material actions of the two administrations do differ. Trump is targeting anyone not white whereas Biden at least targeted people with legal violations. One policy puts all immigrants in fear while the other theoretically should not.
The fact that you can’t see the difference isn’t something I can help you with.
lol
#bothSides
If you somehow managed to reduce all of American politics into two sides, neither democrats nor republicans would be on yours.
Yes, actually. Both genocidal as a matter of fact.
I’ll do you one better, I can’t stand either party
I just especially dislike Republicans right now because they’re in power
Obama and Biden said they’d legalize weed. They didn’t. They failed to put abortion rights into the constitution. I mean I can go on these are just off the top of my head.
They are not immune to legit criticism, however it seems like people get the idea that if you criticize democrats that means you are a die hard Trumper or something…
Back up. Put abortion rights in the constitution? I cant take you seriously.
Didn’t close gitmo. Didn’t end the war on terror. Created the same border camps democrats cry at the gates of for political points. Bailed out the perpetrators of one of this countries most high profile and damaging financial crimes because they held rich peoples stock portfolios hostage. Made pointless concessions on the ACA to republicans who never once cross the isle for even the things they want to pass because they’d rather take the credit themselves.
Those are the ones I’m pulling off the top of my head.
I mean didn’t Trump also promise that and not deliver
Nobody hates Democrats as much as Democrats do.
Probably because two political parties isn’t enough to truly represent the population.
People shit talk non voters, but these are people who found no representation in the two party system. We can change this. We can have more then two political parties. To think otherwise is to think inside the world’s smallest box.
Countries with more parties such as those in Western Europe are also electing fascists. The answer doesn’t lie in more parties. China has a majority party and it doesn’t get people doing the Sieg Heil
Duverger’s Law says that as long as we have this system of voting, we’re going to have two, and only two, major parties. It has changed once in history: when the Republicans replaced the Whigs. So, that’s what you’re looking at: either change the system of voting or replace one of the two parties.
The major political parties may have only changed names once, but the most common stance in modern political science is that we are in the 6th political party alignment in US history.
- Centralization 1796-1824
- Jacksonians 1828-1852
- Republicans 1856-1892
- Progressives 1898-1928
- New Dealers 1932-1972
- Neoliberalism 1980-Present
Nobody gets betrayed by democrats as much as democrats do.
Democrats suck and are ineffectual at accomplishing their (generally decent) goals.
Republicans are trying to turn the US into a dicatorship. I hope this was a hyperbolic statement, but it seems like this is where we are now.
Why can’t we be critical of democrats by being selective in the primaries? I think that a protest vote for an independent candidate, especially if you were in a swing state, has proven to have been a very poor choice.
Edit: To add to my initial point, I think that we are seeing a lot of post-hoc rationalization from non-voters and protest voters.
You would have to be crazy to prefer the outcome that we got over having Kamala, and if you contributed to our current situation, fuck you.
You would have to be lying or a complete idiot to not realize we haven’t had a remotely fair primary in almost 20 years.
Democrats suck and are ineffectual at accomplishing their (generally decent) goals.
Genocide apologia
Their generally decent goals of bombing children in Afghanistan, bombing people in Palestine, starving children in Yemen, starving children in Cuba, starving children in Venezuela, caging children in the US, torturing people in Guantanamo, bombing children in Yugoslavia, and so on? The bill that resulted in the mass enslavement of the US population (highest prison pop. in the world by far) was passed by the Clinton administration, written by Biden.
Are they only powerful enough to do monstrous shit or do they think you’re stupid and will buy their hand wringing? They could have forced through Medicare, deliberately chose not to. They could have codified reproduction rights, deliberately chose not to. They’re fucking telling you which issues they care about, it’s the ones that they actually pass.
well I hope that if you come out of this you come out with a better electoral system I’ll say that
You are not wrong. My point is that dictator trump and his cronies will pave over the bones of Palestinians and turn Gaza into a Trump resort. Strip the rights of all non-christians, minorities, women, and lgbt in America(and this is just citizens!). Take away the only public service for healthcare, meager that it is. We will see nothing but negative progress and monstrous acts from this admin. Monstrous in a far more sinster and evil way than ever before.
My point is that dictator trump and his cronies will pave over the bones of Palestinians and turn Gaza into a Trump resort.
So far, Trump has been slightly better than the Democrats on Gaza, but because democrat supporters refused to acknowledge how bad it was when it was Democrats doing it, they don’t realise.
We are critical of them in the primaries and their supporters vote for the same evil assholes we hate and then call us radicals when we won’t support them. I am so sick of having to explain this to people as if they haven’t rat fucked good candidates out of the primaries multiple times.
…when they bother with having primaries at all.
Exactly. Like fuck off with that bullshit. We tried it your way. Now we are here. Take accountability for the first time ever, lib.
Why can’t we be critical of democrats by being selective in the primaries?
Because half the time they don’t have primaries and the other half they call anyone making good arguments “unelectable radicals”
Don’t just “call them”, they actively sabotage them in a way they never do with a reactionary. Labor did it to Corbyn as well, this is deeply ingrained in bourgeois “democracies”, if you can vote for somebody who will try to bring change, they’ve already fucked up a bunch of times.
Why can’t we be critical of democrats by being selective in the primaries?
Watch out guys, we got a Vooter over here!
Voting for genociders and pro-militarized police didn’t stop the genocide or police murdering black people, so I would count it as a very ineffective strategy as well. I rather vote for what I actually believe in than not voting because I will hell not vote for the garbage democrats.
Edit: “Protest vote” lmao, I don’t owe my vote to Democrats.
It’s the compromise for the vulnerable that most often gets brought up in this situation. A protest vote in a broken first-past-the-post election system generally helps the opposition to your vote. Republicans have demonstrated they hate the vulnerable (disabled, poor, debt-ridden) and Democrats are weak in their opposition, but if you want the help those that are vulnerable you would generally not want to subject them to Republicans, whom benefit from your protest vote.
Another argument is that if you fracture the opposition to bootlickers, the bootlickers will win.
whom benefit from your protest vote.
Who*
I am sorry, but as a black man, I am supposed to be your sacrificial lamb and your fucking compromise for you for what? So you feel safe in your fucking neighborhood? I am sure that all black people and Palestinian Americans will agree when I say: “Fuck you from the bottom of my heart”
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Lol, never takes much to make blueMAGA fascists take the mask off
No, no, fuck you. I mentioned how democrats use militarized police against black people and you say that is supposed to be a fucking compromise. Fuck you, you racist asshole. Fucking white liberals are the fucking worse. No wonder why both MLK and Malcolm X hated your ass.
Edit: So you believe that everyone in the internet has to be white? Of course, I wouldn’t expect less from a liberal. I am sure that I cannot be black to you because I guess that I will never fit whatever stereotype you have of us in your head.
But I will say this: Democrats increased the funding for the police substantially during the BLM protests, treated us like terrorists and threw the heads of the protests in prison. Biden favorite phrase: “We have to back our boys in blue” and proceeded to triple their budget. Democrats hate black people and they oppress us with a militarized police in our neighborhoods.
Don’t be silly dude everyone knows only white liberals are smart enough to operate a computer. Everyone else is a bot or a troll.
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Bro, Biden tripled the budget of cops and you say that they are less harmful?! What is wrong with you?! “Good faith argument” with someone who automatically says that I am lying and who say that people dying should be a compromise, gotcha. My elders MLK, Malcolm X and the Black Panthers have all said that Democrat sucks and the only way forward is socialism. I am going to listen to them instead of you trying to whitesplain to me why Democrats are the best my community got.
Edit: They all died fighting for socialism, not for milquetoast liberties granted in fascism like the ones we get under democrats.
the better argument is that our system is both intentionally keeping these groups vulnerable and, in large part, using them as bait to get you to vote the way they want you to; effectively entrapping you into this system so that you remain ignorant of the fact these same vulnerable groups are empowered and the driving force for change outside this country.
Until they realize that empowerment, there will be suffering, and it seems to be accelerationists who want that suffering to drive change. The whole point is that the system is broken in a first-past-the-post democracy.
I can tell you right now those same vulnerable people are not ready to rise up, though I wish that weren’t the case. There are people who still believe in decorum lmao.
We can talk all we want about people recognizing empowerment, but you’re also fighting entrenched propaganda campaigns that keep those same people fearful and against solidarity. Talk to any working class Fox News watching disphit.
Really until I see one of you propose, or enact, ways to counter that propaganda and lead people to understand their empowerment, ima keep doing me and trying to reduce the harm to the vulnerable people as best I can.
The system is not broken, it is working as intended. Telling you it’s broken is so they can dangle “fixing it” in front of your face like a carrot on a stick, but it will never ever happen for as long as capitalists are allowed to run our world and make decisions for us.
You want “ways to counter that propaganda and lead people to understand their empowerment”, the answer is and always has been class consciousness and historical materialism. It starts with you. Pick up a fucking book and seek it out. Cause I’m not seeing any ideas from you either and whether we like it or not, we are all in this together.
Mexico proved that it’s possible w/o removing the propaganda; queers, trans, students, leftists, women and indigenous people joined to together to kick out both of the liberal and conservative parties to bring in amlo & sheinbaum’s third party for the first time in over a century. Now the pri and the pan are just as irrelevant as a Republican in California or a Democrat in Texas
You’re not helping; you’re only perpetuating the harm to vulnerable people when you cooperate they way they want you to.
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The blue MAGA types are moooostly on .world, but they have the most users, so… .ml are mostly CCP with the same degree of dedication, and blahaj is that but with Likud. I just block .world and blahaj because they are right wingers beyond saving.
CPC -> Communist Party of China
