I’m not wrong, this sub just blames everything on capitalism, supports it all with slogans and cherry picked information, and everyone conveniently ignores how shit communism has worked out for the common folk since it’s inception.
How about this? Anyone who wants to know about communism should first watch “the chekist”, this sub would empty faster than Disney plus.
And yes, capitalism has loads of horrible issue that must (and can) be fixed, but everyone here conveniently ignores the simple fact that it’s the biggest system because it’s beyond by far the most successful system. Denying that is not wanting to look out of your window. Using your cell phone to write about denying that capitalism is successful is… crazy, really. Focus on fixing capititalism instead of dreaming about creating dictatorships, please?
Here’s a hot take: Both systems are shit and we need something better to replace both.
I’m not saying I have the solution; just that what we have now isn’t working very well.
That aside:
Democracy ≠ Capitalism, and Communism ≠ Dictatorship.
Those are four seprate terms that are not synonyms for each other. Just because people hate Capitalism does not mean they dream of a Dictatorship… Wanting to work together towards communal goals is not the same as wanting to be ruled by some King/Queen.
I agree that communism is not a dictatorship, but it does require one to get everyone in line.
I think the best way is a very well controlled capitalism with good taxation on the rich class to ensure you have a great and prosper economy and use the money for a great socialistic welfare system on top of that. Basically what the northwest European countries have. Add rules like “richest person should not surpass 10x the poorest person in wealth” or something oversimplified like that.
Yeah, you really don’t know history. Let’s do some basics.
Russia had a famine every 4 years for over a century while the West was industrializing. The rich didn’t care that famines killed entire families because they owned all the output and could keep themselves safe. By the time the revolution hit, the West was far more stable than Russia was and famines were things of the past. Then the revolution came and the owning class was abolished. Rapid industrialization commenced, the fastest industrialization the world had ever seen. Food security followed the mechanization of farms thanks to central planning. But within a couple years capitalists decided that the USSR posed an existential threat - if they inspired more workers’ revolutions, the gravy train would end for them. So fascism began to emerge in the West. Corporations in every country supported the development of fascism in Europe. Fascist rallies were held at Madison Square Garden. And then Hitler came to power after writing a book detailing his vision for invading Russia, enslaving the Slavic peoples, and using the USA’s highly advanced systems of slavery, apartheid, and reservations to do it. And he explicitly stated that it was the workers’ state that needed to go. So he fielded the world’s most advanced military at the time, supported by the combined industrial might of the West. And the USSR, society that was just coming out of their 4-year famine cycle and had just managed to industrialize it’s farms, had to defend itself against this advanced military threat using technology never before seen, using tactics never before seen, and without any industrial allies supporting them. And the USSR did it. They industrialized to produce a war machine that not only defended against 80% of the Nazi forces but allowed them to push out all the way to Berlin and capture Berlin before the “Allies” could even deal with 20% of the Nazi forces. During that time, famine returned to USSR, because they had not been allowed to develop themselves in peacetime. Why? Because capitalism decided they would not allow it and would rather launch a world war than let workers abolish ownership.
But then we have China, a story in many ways far worse than the story I just told. China had not developed industrial technology by the time Europe had, and that head start for Europe factors in greatly here. Capitalists in Europe wanted the wealth of China, but it turns out that they could produce nothing that China wanted - China produced better ceramics, textiles, foodstuffs, and many other trade goods. China only traded mostly in silver, and that meant capitalists needed silver to buy things from China, like tea. The capitalists invaded “the Americas” and found huge deposits of silver, so they inenslaved the indigenous population and forced them to mine silver to feed their trade with China. But after scouring the globe, enslaving millions on every continent, and dominating entire nations, they hit upon something that worked. Opium. The capitalists sold opium to China, and did so well that by some estimates 2/3s of the Chinese population had become addicted. It got so bad that the flow of silver reversed entirely and the European capitalists were suddenly booming because they were drug dealers of the most addictive substances of the era. China decided that this was bad for their country, so they banned opium. So the Europeans bombarded them with their ironclads, destroyed cities, and sacked the capital, forcing the government to reverse the ban on opium at gun point. Not only that, but they also got full immunity from Chinese law in the 5 major port cities, Britain owned Hong Kong, and administration of trade tarrifs was handed over to the Europeans who starved China of tarrifs revenue. This was the century of humiliation. Then WW2 happened. The People’s Liberation Army spent a long time trying to gain control of China and force out the Japanese and ultimately the Europeans. By the time it was all over, the PLA had proven they were ideologically superior by recruiting thousands of enemy soldiers to their side. Some battalions of the PLA had a casualty rate higher than 100% and fought to the end of the war because they were consistently replacing their fallen soldiers with KMT soldiers who saw the truth of the conflict. By the time the PLA won, China was now over 100 years behind Europe in development, their wealth had been extracted by Europe, and they were still experiencing famines literally every 2 years. Chinese people were the poorest in the world. And in 75 years of communist party control, they executed the fastest ever industrialization, they raised so many people out of poverty they account for 80% of all poverty alleviation in the world, their people have a purchasing power parity that now exceeds the richest capitalist country in the world, they produce the greatest quantity of advanced academic research in hi-tech fields, they are brokering peace deals among decades-long enemies that capitalism has stoked for its own benefit, and they are building alternative systems that allow the rest of the world to finally break free of the abusive shackles of the capitalist West. In 75 years.
No. Capitalism is not the best system we have ever seen. We have seen better systems. The fact that communism is a better system was also recognized by capitalism, which is why they are willing to launch devastating wars - they know they can’t win without mass murder, genocide, environmental devastation, and carpet bombing the production of other nations.
You aren’t allowed to downvote me unless you waaaatch… let’s saaaaay The Land Before Time XIV: Journey of the Brave.
The capitalist system is large because it enriches the greedy and powerful. Why bite the hand that feeds you, even if it starves others. A system’s prevalence is also not any garuntee of goodness or fairness, just sustainability. Capitalism has beenaround for a few hundred years and it’s already falling apart. Monarchies governed almost all humans for thousands of years. So capitalism is worse than the system it replaced by your metric.
We don’t want eastern authoritarian communism, we want western socialism. Take the Nordic model and turn it up to 11. No dictators, but no billionaires, just people still working, just a little less often and getting a little more for it. That’s all. No homeless, no hungry, free university childcare and healthcare, otherwise life is not that different for the already doing okay working class.
Joke all you want, if that makes you feel better about the realities of communism
If you want communism you have to watch “the Chekist”. Not because I tell you to but because it is a telling of the red terror and shows quite well what communism works at its core. You will end up with mass murder because it’s the only way to keep the populace in line because you must take away their freedoms.
If you want your communism then first watch that, then tell me if you still want it. Think it’s western propaganda? It’s written by a guy who lived the shit you want.
You say you don’t want the dictators, but therein lies the problem. If you go for full communism, that is what you’ll need.
I’m all for a strict and limited capitalism with higher taxes the richer you get to 100% tax in income after a certain level. Tax houses heavily when you got more than one.l, that sort of thing. Use all the income for free medical care, free schools, strong safetynets and support for those at the botto, free infrastructure and public transportation.
Edit: here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_RSDqBn0bA shows nicely how communism always ends up. If communism isn’t your thing, great. The problem is that too many people here love it for some reason
Could you explain further how having money leads to a disproportionate impact? Everyone can still vote.
You could argue that democracy doesn’t exist anywhere due to your high standards but I don’t really agree. There are worse democracies like the USA and better democracies (most others), but saying democracy doesn’t exist at all is odd (because really, are there any countries that can be considered democracies that aren’t capitalistic?)
Pretty much everyone agrees that what a lot of the western world and some others have is democracy. It doesn’t really matter what you specifically believe about that.
moneyed interests choose the candidates you are voting for. it doesnt really matter if they let you choose between the candidates they choose for you.
the US is not the only place where this happens because the US imposes their will everywhere else. its the same shit over here and most of the planet, trust me.
then you are gonna have to look for it. you didnt source any of your claims either.
i tought this was obvious in the communism sub of all places but look into how the washington consensus and draconian IMF rules for the third world are imposed, and you will have a pretty good starting point for your research.
also read up on how marxists understand neocolonialism.
Capitalism isn’t democratic. Democracy is the mode of governance where control rights over an organization are assigned to those governed by or in it. In the capitalist firm, the workers are the ones governed by management, yet control rights lie with the employer
This definition captures the underlying notion.that
consensual democracy = self-government
Here is A. Chayes making a similar point:
“The shareholders were the electorate, the directors the legislature, enacting general policies and committing them to the officers for execution. Shareholder democracy, so-called, is misconceived because the shareholders are not the governed of the corporation whose consent must be sought.”
I stubbed my toe this morning, damn capitalism!
I’m not wrong, this sub just blames everything on capitalism, supports it all with slogans and cherry picked information, and everyone conveniently ignores how shit communism has worked out for the common folk since it’s inception.
How about this? Anyone who wants to know about communism should first watch “the chekist”, this sub would empty faster than Disney plus.
And yes, capitalism has loads of horrible issue that must (and can) be fixed, but everyone here conveniently ignores the simple fact that it’s the biggest system because it’s beyond by far the most successful system. Denying that is not wanting to look out of your window. Using your cell phone to write about denying that capitalism is successful is… crazy, really. Focus on fixing capititalism instead of dreaming about creating dictatorships, please?
Here’s a hot take: Both systems are shit and we need something better to replace both.
I’m not saying I have the solution; just that what we have now isn’t working very well.
That aside:
Democracy ≠ Capitalism, and Communism ≠ Dictatorship.
Those are four seprate terms that are not synonyms for each other. Just because people hate Capitalism does not mean they dream of a Dictatorship… Wanting to work together towards communal goals is not the same as wanting to be ruled by some King/Queen.
I agree that communism is not a dictatorship, but it does require one to get everyone in line.
I think the best way is a very well controlled capitalism with good taxation on the rich class to ensure you have a great and prosper economy and use the money for a great socialistic welfare system on top of that. Basically what the northwest European countries have. Add rules like “richest person should not surpass 10x the poorest person in wealth” or something oversimplified like that.
Yeah, you really don’t know history. Let’s do some basics.
Russia had a famine every 4 years for over a century while the West was industrializing. The rich didn’t care that famines killed entire families because they owned all the output and could keep themselves safe. By the time the revolution hit, the West was far more stable than Russia was and famines were things of the past. Then the revolution came and the owning class was abolished. Rapid industrialization commenced, the fastest industrialization the world had ever seen. Food security followed the mechanization of farms thanks to central planning. But within a couple years capitalists decided that the USSR posed an existential threat - if they inspired more workers’ revolutions, the gravy train would end for them. So fascism began to emerge in the West. Corporations in every country supported the development of fascism in Europe. Fascist rallies were held at Madison Square Garden. And then Hitler came to power after writing a book detailing his vision for invading Russia, enslaving the Slavic peoples, and using the USA’s highly advanced systems of slavery, apartheid, and reservations to do it. And he explicitly stated that it was the workers’ state that needed to go. So he fielded the world’s most advanced military at the time, supported by the combined industrial might of the West. And the USSR, society that was just coming out of their 4-year famine cycle and had just managed to industrialize it’s farms, had to defend itself against this advanced military threat using technology never before seen, using tactics never before seen, and without any industrial allies supporting them. And the USSR did it. They industrialized to produce a war machine that not only defended against 80% of the Nazi forces but allowed them to push out all the way to Berlin and capture Berlin before the “Allies” could even deal with 20% of the Nazi forces. During that time, famine returned to USSR, because they had not been allowed to develop themselves in peacetime. Why? Because capitalism decided they would not allow it and would rather launch a world war than let workers abolish ownership.
But then we have China, a story in many ways far worse than the story I just told. China had not developed industrial technology by the time Europe had, and that head start for Europe factors in greatly here. Capitalists in Europe wanted the wealth of China, but it turns out that they could produce nothing that China wanted - China produced better ceramics, textiles, foodstuffs, and many other trade goods. China only traded mostly in silver, and that meant capitalists needed silver to buy things from China, like tea. The capitalists invaded “the Americas” and found huge deposits of silver, so they inenslaved the indigenous population and forced them to mine silver to feed their trade with China. But after scouring the globe, enslaving millions on every continent, and dominating entire nations, they hit upon something that worked. Opium. The capitalists sold opium to China, and did so well that by some estimates 2/3s of the Chinese population had become addicted. It got so bad that the flow of silver reversed entirely and the European capitalists were suddenly booming because they were drug dealers of the most addictive substances of the era. China decided that this was bad for their country, so they banned opium. So the Europeans bombarded them with their ironclads, destroyed cities, and sacked the capital, forcing the government to reverse the ban on opium at gun point. Not only that, but they also got full immunity from Chinese law in the 5 major port cities, Britain owned Hong Kong, and administration of trade tarrifs was handed over to the Europeans who starved China of tarrifs revenue. This was the century of humiliation. Then WW2 happened. The People’s Liberation Army spent a long time trying to gain control of China and force out the Japanese and ultimately the Europeans. By the time it was all over, the PLA had proven they were ideologically superior by recruiting thousands of enemy soldiers to their side. Some battalions of the PLA had a casualty rate higher than 100% and fought to the end of the war because they were consistently replacing their fallen soldiers with KMT soldiers who saw the truth of the conflict. By the time the PLA won, China was now over 100 years behind Europe in development, their wealth had been extracted by Europe, and they were still experiencing famines literally every 2 years. Chinese people were the poorest in the world. And in 75 years of communist party control, they executed the fastest ever industrialization, they raised so many people out of poverty they account for 80% of all poverty alleviation in the world, their people have a purchasing power parity that now exceeds the richest capitalist country in the world, they produce the greatest quantity of advanced academic research in hi-tech fields, they are brokering peace deals among decades-long enemies that capitalism has stoked for its own benefit, and they are building alternative systems that allow the rest of the world to finally break free of the abusive shackles of the capitalist West. In 75 years.
No. Capitalism is not the best system we have ever seen. We have seen better systems. The fact that communism is a better system was also recognized by capitalism, which is why they are willing to launch devastating wars - they know they can’t win without mass murder, genocide, environmental devastation, and carpet bombing the production of other nations.
You aren’t allowed to downvote me unless you waaaatch… let’s saaaaay The Land Before Time XIV: Journey of the Brave.
The capitalist system is large because it enriches the greedy and powerful. Why bite the hand that feeds you, even if it starves others. A system’s prevalence is also not any garuntee of goodness or fairness, just sustainability. Capitalism has beenaround for a few hundred years and it’s already falling apart. Monarchies governed almost all humans for thousands of years. So capitalism is worse than the system it replaced by your metric.
We don’t want eastern authoritarian communism, we want western socialism. Take the Nordic model and turn it up to 11. No dictators, but no billionaires, just people still working, just a little less often and getting a little more for it. That’s all. No homeless, no hungry, free university childcare and healthcare, otherwise life is not that different for the already doing okay working class.
Joke all you want, if that makes you feel better about the realities of communism
If you want communism you have to watch “the Chekist”. Not because I tell you to but because it is a telling of the red terror and shows quite well what communism works at its core. You will end up with mass murder because it’s the only way to keep the populace in line because you must take away their freedoms.
If you want your communism then first watch that, then tell me if you still want it. Think it’s western propaganda? It’s written by a guy who lived the shit you want.
You say you don’t want the dictators, but therein lies the problem. If you go for full communism, that is what you’ll need.
I’m all for a strict and limited capitalism with higher taxes the richer you get to 100% tax in income after a certain level. Tax houses heavily when you got more than one.l, that sort of thing. Use all the income for free medical care, free schools, strong safetynets and support for those at the botto, free infrastructure and public transportation.
Edit: here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_RSDqBn0bA shows nicely how communism always ends up. If communism isn’t your thing, great. The problem is that too many people here love it for some reason
is capitalism really democracy?
No, the financial system a country uses has technically no bearing on the political system.
But are most capitalist countries also democratic? Yes. Are there any democratic communist countries? No.
technically, no. but i dont think its democratic for money to have a disproportionate impact in the system, by definition.
Could you explain further how having money leads to a disproportionate impact? Everyone can still vote.
You could argue that democracy doesn’t exist anywhere due to your high standards but I don’t really agree. There are worse democracies like the USA and better democracies (most others), but saying democracy doesn’t exist at all is odd (because really, are there any countries that can be considered democracies that aren’t capitalistic?)
Pretty much everyone agrees that what a lot of the western world and some others have is democracy. It doesn’t really matter what you specifically believe about that.
moneyed interests choose the candidates you are voting for. it doesnt really matter if they let you choose between the candidates they choose for you.
the US is not the only place where this happens because the US imposes their will everywhere else. its the same shit over here and most of the planet, trust me.
No, I don’t trust you. Provide sources please.
then you are gonna have to look for it. you didnt source any of your claims either.
i tought this was obvious in the communism sub of all places but look into how the washington consensus and draconian IMF rules for the third world are imposed, and you will have a pretty good starting point for your research.
also read up on how marxists understand neocolonialism.
I didn’t really make any claims though. If you disagree what claims do you want sources for?
That asking for sources is a sin? Yeah I actually know. You people always hate that.
In the US, hard no.
In other countries, probably.
Can it be better, absolutely
Capitalism isn’t democratic. Democracy is the mode of governance where control rights over an organization are assigned to those governed by or in it. In the capitalist firm, the workers are the ones governed by management, yet control rights lie with the employer
Your definition of a democracy is interesting but also quite made up.
All definitions are made up.
This definition captures the underlying notion.that
consensual democracy = self-government
Here is A. Chayes making a similar point:
“The shareholders were the electorate, the directors the legislature, enacting general policies and committing them to the officers for execution. Shareholder democracy, so-called, is misconceived because the shareholders are not the governed of the corporation whose consent must be sought.”
Robert Dahl had a similar understanding
By you? Because that paragraph you (not you) wrote is not the made up definition of democracy.
And though everything is made up, a definition of anything is something we all agree on, not just you.