If genocide is a red line for voting than every citizen who has voted within our life time would have crossed it. Our whole political system upholds genocide from local to presidential. A red line and acceptable are not actual synonyms like you are inferring. I do things I don’t find acceptable all the time because they are better than the other option and its less acceptable to allow the alternative to happen. I can have gencodie and fascism in america or just genocide. Neither is acceptable. One will happen whether I make a decision or not.
Not in picture: the majority of Democrats that support a cease fire.
Biden supports a ceasefire. The only people resisting a ceasefire are Netanyahu and the Republican party.
voting 3rd party
not voting also sends a strong message
Pretty much just had this conversation. Except my point was if you want further left, then you have to give Dems consistent victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find votes. Remember Dems have had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for only 4 years of the last 24 years.
Well said sir
Left wing people walked away from the Democrats after 1968, and they had every righteous reason to. Did the Democrats suddenly start embracing actual leftism as a winning strategy as a result? Did a viable third party emerge? Did non electoral activism (much more powerful at the time, like a massive nationwide movement) finally take hold and upend the system to bring about real, sustained change?
Not exactly. We went, in that time, from “great society” and 1-income families who owned their home and sent kids to college, and the civil rights act and all that stuff, to Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush and the fuckin apocalypse that’s brought us the current corporate hellscape. The reality of working life in today’s America would be unrecognizable to most (white) people in the 1960s. The Democrats, after 24 years of losing elections (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter), finally tacked hard to the right and started being contenders again, but we lost a lot of ground and we’re only just now even starting to undo the damage. The party of JFK and Carter became the party of Clinton and Obama.
I actually think modern left wing people are aware of how terrifying Trump is, and would vote for Biden even if he wasn’t a significant step up from the low bar that is the modern Democrats. But yes, the drumbeat of MAGA imposters and the occasional confused leftist saying that if we just stop voting then everything will find a way to work itself out is certainly a thing that exists.
(ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter),
And when Gore and Hillary Clinton stuck their head a little bit left on climate change, they lost. And people wonder why Dems go to the center to find voters.
Gore won, and Hillary didn’t lose because of her views on climate change.
Dems are bad at politics, so they “go to the center” chasing republicans. They simply don’t realize they’re already a right wing party, and are chasing the extremist republicans towards far right fascism. Or more likely, they just don’t care so long as the corporate donor money keeps flowing in.
Oh we had president Gore? I must have missed that. Thanks 3rd party voters!
Dude, Dems constantly lose Congress. They’ve had control of all 3 house Senate presidency for 4 years of the last 24 years. Or 6 years for the last 44 years. That’s the math. So they go to the center to find votes. They don’t go center just because, they go there to find votes.
Unfortunely no, you’re once again incorrect.
Gore won the election, as was proven in numerous FL recounts. However, Fox News, among other mainstream corporate media orgs, had already called the election for GW Bush. This was actually the basis the corrupt Supreme Court used to give the presidency to Dubya in Bush v Gore, and the rest was history.
The Dems shifting to the right doesn’t have anything to do with finding votes - it’s all about finding the money. As you rightly point out, Dems are terrible at politics and lose elections when they shouldn’t. I mean just consider how reprehensible the Republican policies are, it’s so bad that Rs don’t even campaign on their platform, choosing instead to resort to divisive culture war distractions to motivate their voting base.
In the late 70s / early 80s, Dems realized they were losing because they were being massively outspent by republicans who had been courting big business, offering them deregulation in exchange for campaign financing. In over 96% of elections, the candidate who spent more on advertising won. Dems decided their only chance to remain relevant was to become a fundraising organization instead of an actual representative political party - thus, their policies became much more conservative in order to appease corporate donors and get the money flowing into their coffers too. Of course, they never raise as much as republicans, so this strategy is flawed to its core, but this is the reality of the modern day DNC, why it is in fact a controlled opposition party, and why they consistently fail to motivate any significant number of voters. Because they aren’t chasing voters - they’re chasing money.
Oh so we had president Gore? We can talk all day about recounts, but we did not have president Gore. You realllllyy don’t want to deal with that huh. Probably because of the next part: it was the third party voters that cost Gore the election. Thanks 3rd party voters!
The Dems shifting to the right doesn’t have anything to do with finding votes - it’s all about finding the money.
Lol they want to win elections, and that means voters.
As you rightly point out, Dems are terrible at politics
Lol I didn’t say that. At this point, well we’ll see what else I’ll bother replying to.
At the end of the day, the election is won by VOTERS. All this refusing to vote in protest and voting 3rd party in protest that I see so often is what costs Dems elections. And the hilarious part is, these protest votes and protest no-votes end up being wildly counter productive. They give the election to Bush and Trump, and guess what happens to the Overton window when that happens? The whole thing moves right.
So we’re down to: What do you, the informed left wing (I assume) voter do to move things left? What you can do is vote Dems. Give them consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find, wait for it, VOTES.
I think your reading comprehension may be hampered by your fixation on a 2 party system. Gore won the election, but had the presidency stolen from him by the media and Supreme Court.
In the recent elections which have had some of the highest turnout of voters over the time period we’re discussing, at most an abysmal 38% of eligible voters voted.
Perhaps consider that it’s the misguided policies Dems maintain in order to pursue those delicious legal bribe monies, as opposed to 3rd party candidates trying to do the right thing, that are costing the Dems election results. Blaming voters for actually exercising their right to vote is wholly undemocratic.
So, as an informed left wing voter who wishes to see more progressive policies enacted, I would pressure the Dems from the left to abandon those conservative policy positions if they want my vote. I would then vote for someone else if they maintain policies inconsistent with my beliefs. That’s how democracy works.
Hell of an antifascist coalition that throws its weight behind a party and candidate funding and arming and denying a genocide.
In this shit universe you have to be pragmatic sometimes and pick the less fascist person to prevent even worse fascism. Nobody like it, but here we are.
Okay. When do you have to be pragmatic and draw a red line? Where is that red line?
There is no red line. Things change. Society and humanity isn’t static . what was acceptable in the past isn’t anymore and what is acceptable now was not in the past. I am not an absolutist.
You do what you think will functionally lead to the best possible outcome now.
Is that a roundabout way of saying that the genocide is acceptable to you now?
I’ve never seen someone claim moral relativism for that reason!
No.
Okay, now then would you say that genocide is your red line?
No. People upset with genocide are not Trump supporters. This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide. No matter what hat they wear.
I literally tittered like a schoolgirl observing how many yelling-guys from the meme are in this thread with their short top level comments. Taken in aggregate it is funny to me like “oh shit this meme hit a nerve it looks like”
Nobody said don’t be upset with the genocide. They said let’s elect the guy who’s doing a poor job trying to stop one genocide, and not let the guy win who wants 10 genocides.
Lmao no. You can try to walk it back but we’ve all been here. We’re not dumb and we weren’t born yesterday. Nobody is refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a country. It’s because he supports and covers for them committing a genocide.
Conflating protestors with trump voters is just the cherry on top. This is what genocide denial looks like.
Yeah he’s not though, because there isn’t one in “palestine”
I’ve never voted in an election where I wasn’t voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don’t get nice things in America.
calling leftists fascists is the height of political illiteracy.
Political illiteracy accusations from someone who thinks that Trump didn’t try to stage an autocoup? Bold move.
i think if he wanted a coup he could have had one. what he actually wanted was some showmanship and what he got instead was an unruly crowd.
Funny how some vocal self-proclaimed leftists online (who are, of course, too PURE to ever participate in antifascist coalitions) and literal fascists both try to downplay Trump’s fascism.
i know what fascism is, and it’s what happens every day in congress between two fasces.
i know what fascism is, and it’s what happens every day in congress between two fasces.
“No fascist, no fascist; you’re the fascist!”
You even act like Trump. Unsurprising, considering I hear many of the same buzzwords too. Would you like to throw in a few 'lib’s and 'deep state’s to round it all out?
you can ignore the fasces on the wall of the house chamber, but i can’t. trying to pigeonhole me with your favorite boogeyman is lazy and transparent.
you can ignore the fasces on the wall of the house chamber,
I mean, you can ignore that the fasces pre-dates fascism and was originally a symbol of the authority of republics, as opposed to the authority of monarchs and aristocracies, but go off, I guess.
