• Makan@lemmygrad.ml
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    8 months ago

    I’m gonna be honest.

    Even though I didn’t like Kamala, I still view the overall result as a tragedy for the working-class, as the cultural zeitgeist will likely change following this.

  • sous-merde@lemmygrad.mlBanned
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    8 months ago

    At first, i agreed with the explanations based on the lack of cohesion of the democratic party, and the influence of Palestine, on the votes :

    With most votes counted, the 2024 election elected D.Trump with ~73M votes vs. ~68M for K.Harris, compared to 2020 when D.Trump was rejected despite having the same numbers(, 74.2M,) and J.Biden was elected with 81.3M votes.
    Furthermore, D.Trump would have received less votes without influent people like Robert Kennedy Jr. on his side, who still received votes apparently.
    However, third parties like the libertarian party or the Green party received much more votes in 2016 than in 2024(, and the republican&democratic parties much less). Having gained 1M votes at most wouldn’t have that much of an impact.
    While i can’t deny the influence of many pro-Palestine actors, i can’t really prove it by the numbers either, and some deny it, the voter turnout was high.
    I only took a superficial look, so i don’t doubt that there’re many americans here who could easily correct my mistakes if they want to

      • sous-merde@lemmygrad.mlBanned
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        8 months ago

        Counterpoint :) :

        Also, the high voter turnout doesn’t favor the alternative of a boycott.

        Only 2020 saw a higher voter turnout apparently, possibly because of the mail-in ballots

        • multitotal@lemmygrad.ml
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          8 months ago

          It says those are expected vote totals for states where less than 97 percent of the vote has been counted. Trump is gonna end up with some 73.000.000 votes, while Kamala has 68.000.000 right now, Biden received 81.200.000 in 2020. That’s 14 million fewer votes overall than in 2020. That sounds to me like a lot of Dem voters didn’t show up.

          • sous-merde@lemmygrad.mlBanned
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            8 months ago

            It says those are expected vote totals for states where less than 97 percent of the vote has been counted

            We may have understood it the same way, yet just to be sure : The turnout is counted normally, except for states where less than 97% of the votes are counted, in which case the reported turnout has been replaced by the expected turnout.

            That sounds to me like a lot of Dem voters didn’t show up

            You’re right, if they didn’t voted for third parties, if the votes are mostly counted, if the voter turnout is the same, and if republicans didn’t received more votes than in 2020, then where did these 14M votes went ?
            Thanks for confirming that i’m missing something, don’t know if you or someone here have the explanation.

            • multitotal@lemmygrad.ml
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              8 months ago

              Well, they haven’t counted all the votes yet, but it seems that 158.000.000 total votes were cast according to an analyst from UFL, who gets info from the bureau of elections or whatever. If Trump has 73M and Kamala has 68M votes, some 2.4M have voted third party. I guess that means there are still some 14.5 million votes to be counted.

              Which seems like a lot, doesn’t it? I don’t know what’s going on, perhaps we’re making some error somewhere.

              • sous-merde@lemmygrad.mlBanned
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                8 months ago

                And if they don’t have the same source, it confirms the WaPo’s 65% with its 64.52%(, in the VEP_TURNOUT_RATE column)

                perhaps we’re making some error somewhere

                Yeah, you’re right, it’s too obvious, anyone can do 72.6M+68M+2.2M and easily see that it’s only ~143M out of 158.5, so we’re indeed making an obvious mistake somewhere

                • IHave69XiBucks@lemmygrad.ml
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                  8 months ago

                  While it is probably just that they werent counted yet can we atleast entertain the funniest outcome which is that after 4 years of yelling about how the election was stolen from him Trump actually stole the election, and hacked the voting machines or something? And a lot of the missing votes were fake? I just think it would be so funny I’d love to see how liberals reacted to that once its revealed. Like theyd probably just go “well shucks guess next time we wont let that happen”.

  • Absolute@lemmygrad.ml
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    8 months ago

    I’ve done what I feel is a pretty good job ignoring US election (canadian here), but the liberal head loss over this I sadly cannot ignore. Otherwise reasonable people acting as if the world has ended when this man has already been president ? Some of the same people who agreed with me that KKKamala is not in any capacity a “harm reduction” vote acting as if martial law has just been declared or some shit ? Maybe I’m just the disagreeable asshole but I just find this behavior sad.

    Obviously fuck Trump should go without saying how pathetically shitty that dude is but I mean come on. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been murdered and terminally wounded under the democrats, not trump. Roe v Wade was overturned under the democrats, not Trump. We have witnessed one of the most acute transfers of wealth to the ultra rich under the dems, not the republicans. The war in the Ukraine started and was goaded on under Biden’s admin, not Trump.

    I’m not trying to say in any sense that things will get a single iota better with republicans in office but I feel like I’m taking crazy pills seeing the reactions online and from people I would consider to be rational individuals. They might even be right that these things will get worse under another Trump admin more quickly or in different ways than if Kamala won, but still I find the reaction to it ridiculous.

    Not that any american needs to or should care about my opinion considering I’m relatively removed from the situation but like, am I being unempathetic or unreasonable ?

    • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      I had the same feeling. I am not going to bat for Trump now or even, man is a piece of shit, but he’s still a known quantity. They have had a Trump presidency before. It sucked sure, but I don’t know why people are acting like he is going to declare himself emperor day 1. He has been in office, we know exactly the type of policies he would be pursuing. A couple of which I could honestly see as being good things, albeit for the wrong reasons (like if Trump actually withdrew the US from NATO, not that I expect that to ever happen).

      Yet I see people seriously believing that he is going to round up all dissenters day 1 and declare martial law. ICE has been doing that already, for both flavours of administration.

    • l0tusc0bra@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      Yeah I’m in a similar space as a Canadian. Stayed relatively offline until a couple hours ago and now it’s official lol. I empathize with your growing sense of detachment from American politics and what helped me come to grips with that is recently is learning that America has the most frequent elections of any country in the whole world. It’s baked into their culture. They go through this cycle every 4 years like clockwork, as their constitution mandates.

      The reactions both before and after the 2016 one were EXACTLY like this. Same talking points, same willful ignorance of all the horrible bullshit the incumbent dem admin did like Biden blowing up Nordstream, helping complete the border wall, deliberately stalling/defusing 1/6 investigations, aiding and abetting the Palestinian genocide, stoking the Ukraine war, shrugging at all the SCOTUS rulings rather than just packing it like the GOP did…

      It’s just going to be so painful and cringe to see all their fantasies about muh concentration camps and cancelled elections not come true and see them do all of this AGAIN in 2028, probably with fucking Kumla again.

      I guess to get to your concern, if you’re being unempathetic than I definitely am too for whatever that is worth. I used to be willing to live and let live for americans who voted for whomever because I didn’t see meaningful difference and because I thought they were simply misled, but after being personally insulted and attacked and sneered at by Americans who tell you to butt out as a non-American when you stop toeing the DNC line, I kind of just said fuck 'em. I think they deliberately make the choice of “genocide over there vs over here” and dress it up with pride stickers and memes and twitter posts and Parks & Rec screenshots to make themselves feel better about only giving a shit about American lives. I’m just emotionally divesting from American politics and focusing on things that can actually help prepare me. It helps to remember that they do this every 2 goddamn years and it’s not the end of the world.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        8 months ago

        Not only do they do it every two years, they take a year to do it! It’s one year on, one year off. One year off is not enough time away from the tedium for the mind to recover.

          • l0tusc0bra@lemmygrad.ml
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            8 months ago

            It’s 24/7 with them and has been for literally centuries. I’m just gonna start telling them that we international observers are just plain fuckin bored of this after watching the US government get away with murder every single day, year after year regardless of whose ass is sitting in the oval office signing off on all of it.

            Also, if they really truly believe that the Day of the Rope is going to come any day now then why do none of them ever own guns or organize or make any kind of plans beyond checking a box and threatening to go colonize move to other countries? It’s almost like deep down they know it’s all kafabe.

    • Hagels_Bagels@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      I don’t find your view unreasonable at all. Pro-Democrat people have always been crazy when it comes to losing the election to a Republican and Pro-Republican people have always been crazy when it comes to losing the election to a Democrat.

      The really substantial global events such as the Zionist Genocide against the Gaza Strip and the Russia-Ukraine war are more impactful than all the bickering between the 2 parties in the USA. State agencies make plans years in advance before carrying them out so that they can dedicate state resources towards those plans. If there were to be a candidate that caused major disruption to those plans then all efforts would be made to undermine their chance of coming to power.

      There’s only a change in rhetoric and framing of major events depending on who wins the election. I don’t live in the USA either but I remember feeling conflicted about how I would have voted were I to have lived there in 2020. Trump is outwardly a racist person who uses similar propaganda tactics as Hitler IMO. He feeds off of people’s anger, scapegoats minorities, creates a sense of ‘community’ among his supporters to make them feel emotionally invested in supporting him, uses ingroup/outgroup politics more heavily, and creates catchy labels to attack his enemies “sleepy Joe”, “crooked Hillary” etc.

      Whereas Kamala Harris and Democrats in general (like Obama) are just good at honing in on the most diplomatic language possible to invoke apathy towards all injustices perpetrated by the US government, its allies and corporations. And to be honest, with me I admit that it kind of works. I remember feeling much more passionate about awful shit in the USA when Trump was president compared to Biden. I can’t even imagine the rage I would have felt had Donald Trump justified the bombing of Al-Ahli Hospital by Israel compared to Biden doing the exact same thing.

      Which of the two is worse is impossible for me to say, and all Dems who admonish people for voting for Jill Stein and opposing Genocide, blaming them for some imaginary people bleeding out are total clowns. The election ended up being about whether you identify more with Elon Musk and Joe Rogan or with Beyoncé. It’s ok if you don’t fall into either camp.

  • StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.mlBanned
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    8 months ago

    This shit was so predictable lmao at least the victory lap will be less violent than the “stolen election” protests, America now has a more fitting face

  • Mzuark@lemmygrad.ml
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    8 months ago

    Mood around my campus was pretty dead today. I voted for big K but I am so incredibly disappointed by how this turned out. Also, she and Biden have apparently disappeared. She never even saw the crowd after the results were called.

  • rando895@lemmygrad.ml
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    8 months ago

    Last night I watched an “election special” episode of This Hour Has 22 Minutes (a Canadian political comedy, I think it’s the only one).

    2 things:

    Do “democratic voters” not see anything wrong with the “democracy ends if Trump is voted in!” line? Like, if a candidate/party/etc. is so bad that it could spell the end to your country, and your electoral system allows those sorts of politicians to not only have a platform but a real shot at power, shouldn’t you be concerned that the people you are voting for have done nothing to bolster your democratic institutions? How is it so hard to see that saying “he’s the literal devil and must be stopped!”, while doing nothing to protect “democracy” is just political theater and you are being played for fools who must choose which cult to be a part of?

    Thing 2:

    OMG THINGS ARE SO MUCH WORSE THAN I THOUGHT I know a comedy show cherry picks photos and videos, but do Americans not realize that the cult of personality surrounding two politicians IS NOT NORMAL!? It gives me the same kind of ick I felt when I was a teen visiting a friend’s Pentecostal church, everyone started speaking in tongues as we surrounded the altar (or whatever it’s called) and some middle aged white man put is hand on my shoulder from behind and started praying or chanting or something.

    I’m usually psychologically resilient when it comes to Capitalism and empire because I have developed some level of understanding. But the crazy cult gatherings I saw… That gave me feelings of dread and sadness I haven’t experienced in a long time.

    On the plus side it did help me see just how far along the empire is towards its collapse into irrelevance… But why do they have nukes? Like damn…

    I hope y’all in the usa have a pleasant day, find new comrades to organize with, and experience health, happiness, and safety.

    • USSR Enjoyer@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      One of my favorite arguments to US election hysterics is to point out that no one in that country thinks the other party should actually exist. Most voters are ideologues focused on “defeating the [opposition party]” based entirely on idpol and vibes. Nearly everyone committed to US politics actually wants a one party system, but cannot seem to form the words to express that directly.

      Like, “Do the [opposition party] make the country better?” No? So they shouldn’t be allowed to have power, right? Agreed? Okay, then you have to prevent them from getting power by voting, right? Yes? So voting for the [opposition party] is off the table? Agree? Okay then, in your view, the point of Democracy™ is to maintain a one-party system by choosing Good over Evil. Does it prevent Evil from getting power? No? Does it mitigate Evil from getting power? Sometimes? Would there be less Evil if the [opposition party] didn’t exist? Yes? Then voting is ineffective and the [opposition party] should be banned from politics? Ummmm…

  • Can someone explain to me why Libs, specifically libs who root for the blue team seem to have more hatred for people who did not vote or vote 3rd party than the Republican team who is supposed to be their opponent?

    • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      They see third party voters as more closely aligned with democrats, while they see republicans as lost causes. In short, they think they have a much higher chance to get third party voters to vote for their blue ghoul, while they don’t see how they can sway a deep red republican. Obviously the Democratic party would never compromise with third party voters and their fanatics don’t care about that. So they just berate and scold third party voters.

        • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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          8 months ago

          Had Kamala conceded on Gaza, I’m sure the Greens/PSL would have dropped out.

          Greens maybe, PSL i would hope not, but why would Democrats ever do something like that? That’s a terrible deal for them. The amount of votes they’d gain from that would be vastly outweighed by the amount of Zionist & MIC donor money they’d lose. Imo they acted rationally according to the logic of bourgeois “democracy” - you gain more votes from having the donor class on your side than doing any amount of things that would actually benefit or please your voter base.

          I mean i’m glad that third party voters sent a message that support for genocide will be punished even if only marginally, it’s the morally right thing to do, but i don’t think that the Democrat party gives a single shit about that message. They will have learned nothing. But hopefully the voters have, namely that the system doesn’t work for them but for genocidal psychopath billionaires, and that all the US government’s pretense about human rights is a cruel joke. This is one more step on the path to class consciousness.

    • amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      I think there’s a number of reasons, but a couple contributing are probably:

      1. They’re actually a lot closer in views to republicans than they are those who are even a little “left” and whether they tend to be all that conscious of it or not, it can be a system shock when they hear where people are drawing a line. I mean, I saw someone online in one place I go, who said words to the effect of they love the democratic party, but they need to do better. I could not even begin to imagine using the word “love” anywhere near the democratic party myself, unless it was like “love the thought of them not being a party anymore.”

      2. They get told in the media to blame “the left” and “3rd party voters” for election losses rather than being told to take responsibility for failing to court those voters.

    • Muad'Dibber@lemmygrad.mlOPM
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      8 months ago

      Maybe a consistency / identity thing. They need to feel that voting matters in their bourgeois democracy, and they align a part of their identity around “good citizen voter”. The majority of people who don’t vote because they (rightly) realize it doesn’t change the price of bread, are seen as enemies and heretics to that near religious conviction.

    • Ozmanthius@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      In all honesty i think it’s probably similar to how we hate libs, libs as typical with their kind think that the practical choice is to vote for kamala so that their boogeyman do not win. The weak left who care about things like a genocide or are done with the two party system are hypocrites to them because they cannot look past the democrat astro turfing and beyond their own farts. Well, i for one just want to watch that wretched country implode but i pray for the safety of my comrades with either of them winning

      • I mean I can get that they see it as a vote for trump ect ect. what gets me is that they are often MORE mad about a none vote or a 3rd party vote than a vote for the republicans, and I just do not get it. Like if your fear is the other guy winning I would just assume you would hate anyone who does not vote for your person equaly

  • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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    8 months ago

    This guy is on cable news talking about US election

    His nameplate says “religious guru”. All they are talking about muslims and khalistanis. Give me cultural revolution ASAP.

      • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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        8 months ago

        There is a state in India called Punjab which is a major center for the Sikh demographic. There is a Sikh separatist movement that calls for a state for Sikhs which they call Khalistan. The adherents of this movements are Khalistanis.

        Now I don’t know how legitimate this “threat” of Khalistanis is because the news is useless here. They have some history of organising and violence. For example, Indira Gandhi (former prime minister) was assassinated by her bodyguards who belonged to this movement.

        These days though they are more often than not just used as the enemy to fearmonger. They still have a presence but not like before. If you have read about Trudeau talking about Indian state-sanctioned assassinations in Canada, that was related to this but I am not sure how closely.

        • Rasm653u [He/him] @lemmygrad.ml
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          8 months ago

          For example, Indira Gandhi (former prime minister) was assassinated by her bodyguards who belonged to this movement.

          Being assassinated by your own bodyguards is quite ironic.

          • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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            8 months ago

            It was a whole thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star

            Operation Blue Star was a military operation by the Indian Armed Forces conducted between 1 and 10 June 1984 to remove Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and other Sikh militants from the Golden Temple (Harmandir Sahib), a holy site of Sikhism, and its adjacent buildings.

            The military underestimated the firepower possessed by the Sikh militants, whose armaments included Chinese-made rocket-propelled grenade launchers and ammunition with armour-piercing capabilities. Hoping to avoid damage to the holy site, Indian forces unsuccessfully assaulted the temple using light weaponry and quickly resorted to using heavy weapons, including tanks, helicopters and artillery to dislodge the well-fortified Sikh militants.

            The assassination was at the back of this.

          • Ozmanthius@lemmygrad.ml
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            8 months ago

            IIRC this was following the massacre she unleashed on their most sacred temple. The Gandhi Family is Bourgeoisie scum like every other indian politico family. personally looted and kept the country down for so long.

        • darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml
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          8 months ago

          IMO that movement has many of the hallmarks of being a propped up US/western destabilization and balkanization operation much like their support for that terrorist movement in Xinjiang in China. Their support is lower key perhaps because they want to maintain good relations against India to use it against China but it’s still there.

          • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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            8 months ago

            It’s possible but if that is the case, the Indian state’s and news’ narrative of it does not consider that angle at all. The closest we have come to this is the discussion around the fact that Canada has a large Sikh community and would not let India wantonly assassinate them. Besides this, the movement is just painted as TERRORIST without any further explanation ignoring the common trend of Indian administration of othering the communities that are not upper caste North Indian Hindus.

    • 矛⋅盾@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      if Dems win: wow our strategy of catering to the “moderates” and conservatives estranged by Trump worked!

      if Dems lose: wow we didn’t cater to the “moderates” or conservatives estranged by Trump hard enough. Gotta go harder next time.

    • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
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      8 months ago

      Honestly, I don’t think they care. As long as they can keep people occupied with the theater of which genocidal maniac will be in office.

      But if they did care…no they will assume that they were too far left and run even faster to the right.