I love how the propagandists just keep beating the same drum after the Biden administration has constructed a ceasefire deal which has received unanimous UN Security Council support, and did appear to be moving forward until about 14 hours ago. (Edit: It might still, that’s not over yet.)
It’s almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we’d lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s) It’s almost like geopolitics are - wait for it - complicated.
Second Edit: Let’s also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel’s back is against the wall, they’re running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?
Have the weapon shipments to Israel stopped?
No, neither has the money
But hey, some rando with literally no national attention is polling at 3% in a couple of safely blue states, so definitely don’t vote for GeNoCiDe JoE! /s
Notice how they only ever criticize Biden, and never the Republican party, which fully supports Israeli bullshit?
Oh I’ve noticed. The way I see it, there are three options when it comes to the “both sides”/protest vote camp, every single one of them is one of the following:
- a bad faith actor cosplaying as a leftist
- an accelerationist
- a misguided idealist who legitimately believes a non-mainstream candidate could win and/or completely disregards the cold hard fact that FPTP means a third party/abstain vote simply endangers the lesser of two evils candidate while empowering the greater of two evils candidate
No matter what I will never stop throwing shade at that crowd hard and heavy. The first two on that list will never change. I do hope, however, that continued social pressure on that last type of person will make some of them realize that voting is just as much a responsibility as a right, and consider that maybe there’s a good reason their views are so unpopular.
Edited after a good point made by samus12345.
Also I noticed the single downvote on every one of my comments. I know who you are lol. Glad to see I’m still living in your head rent-free.
What about a more nuanced approach, such as both sides are shit. One side is clearly a bit less shit than the other, and so, I’ll vote for that side, out of duress. I don’t want to, I want to vote someone I actually believe in. I can’t say many good things about the party I’m voting for, but I can’t say ANYTHING good about their only viable opponent. And so, in an effort to keep the worst case scenario from happening, I’m going to vote for the only viable option.
This is the core of the “both sides” argument to me. We’re going to vote dem. But we cannot forget that neither of these parties are the ones we want. It’s important to make that known. We are not voting for you because we like you, we’re voting for you because we REALLY DON’T LIKE THE OTHER ONE. As long as we keep talking about that, as long as that very critical voice isn’t silenced, we can slowly move the needle, until eventually one election we’ll actually be able to elect the one we want.
As long as we keep talking about that, as long as that very critical voice isn’t silenced, we can slowly move the needle, until eventually one election we’ll actually be able to elect the one we want.
Which is why centrists are so keen on silence from their critics to the left. And only ever the left.
The neolib centrists need the right to guarantee their power. The left is the only group threatening that.
I think there are also misguided idealists who think it’s more important that they feel good about not voting for the “genocide” guy while absolving themselves of any blame should his opponent win. They know a third party candidate can’t win, but that’s not as important as them being “right”.
Yeah that’s a good point.
NO, These are all bad points! With the regularity of these posts, I am starting to suspect you are all bots.
If you want Biden to stop doing something, like supporting a genocide, you don’t just say “please stop, but I’ll support you no matter what”. You tell him, pollsters and everyone who asks that you definitely won’t be voting for someone who supports x. When it’s time to vote, it might be time to vote for the least evil choice.
I’ve been pointing that out all the time. They’re never on any posts critical of Trump. Only anything about Biden. It it’s critical, they’re there to agree- if it’s positive, they’re there to shit all over it.
Also notice how there’s never any talk about what they wish Biden was doing instead.
I wish Biden would stop sending weapons to Israel.
I’ve noticed they will have a little tirade if you ask them what is the logical consistency that they support China despite being “against” Gaza genocide in a way that means they couldn’t possibly vote for harm reduction.
voting is not a harm reduction strategy.
It is if you think women losing access to healthcare or Ukrainians being massacred is harm.
voting isn’t a harm reduction strategy. a harm reduction strategy would be recognizing those bad things are going to happen and helping people mitigate the fallout.
Republicans don’t pretend to care they wear their bigotry on their shoulder, Democrats are covert in their bigotry and their racism that’s why they are often called out for it
That is why every time someone brings up Genocide Joe, I bring up Turbo Genocide Donny
literally whataboutism
It’s not, though. Nice try.
saying something doesnt make it true.
I don’t really disagree with you, but I do unironically think we should have invaded Israel months ago.
It was unanimous because Russia abstained. Putin loves the refocus on Israel while he continues his genocidal war crimes in Ukraine under the US media radar.
For those who haven’t been keeping up, Russia has abducted 700,000 Ukrainian children to be raised as Russians in foster homes since the war began. It’s genocide on a scale 20 times larger than Palestine, and isn’t making national headlines in the US due to the focus on Israel.
The US formally declared this as genocide in the House of Representatives with a 390-9 vote in April by invoking the UN Genocide Convention, and the ICC has issued arrest warrants. Did you see any headlines about that?
Russia is also the largest investor in the sanctioned Iran economy that is directly funding Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis.
I’m legit not trying to troll here, but I vaguely recall a news story last month where Biden said it’s not genocide. I forget if he was referring to Ukraine or Gaza, but either way I was kind of dumbfounded like wtf.
He was referring to Gaza. Its amazing the number of lies $12m buys
Both sides are bad. that’s factually correct information
Turd Sandwich or Massive Douche.
But what if I don’t want a typical Democrat in office either?
Voting for someone in an election in the US is not an endorsement of that person. You have effectively two choices in many of the elections due to how the system is designed. You vote for the best choice of those two.
Not voting, or voting for a non viable candidate, is a signal that you Do Not Care who is in power.
Voting is a tool, and a civic duty. It’s one of the few ways US society allows direct input from citizens.
If you actually are against facism, don’t use misguided idealism to encourage people to throw away the little political power they have.
It’s one of the few ways US society allows direct input from citizens.
Okay here’s my input: I don’t vote for people who support genocides or block strikes.
If you want my vote work for it.
That’s your prerogative, just recognize that if both options support genocide and block strikes, so you chose to vote for a non viable candidate, or to not vote, you’re effectively disenfranchising yourself.
Your last point is very valid though. The DNC is very good at shooting themselves in the foot because they should know very well that people do get demotivated and just stop voting, yet continue to distance themselves from their voter base, resting on their laurels as “the only sane choice out of the two”.
Supporting local candidates, where your vote also is more heavily weighted, is one of the ways to shift policy - the US govt isnt just the president, it’s representatives and senators and state governments.
Both sides are bad
It’s jut that one is kinda great with a bunch of bad things, the other is a pineapple up your ass nightmare shitshow.
Which one to choose, choices choices choices…
Is it even fair to call them bad if you immediately also admit that they’re “kinda great”?
If you cherry pick the comment, yes. Insaid a little bit more there.
Truth be told, Biden has done a shit tonne of great things, really, and a lot of the bad was out of his hands. Truth be told too, he now appears a bumbling old man close to his deathbed, and very far from ready for a presidency and still I’d say vote for him because well, you know, the alternative sucks
One is implied as guilty of genocide because their companies sold weapons to and haven’t actively prevented their use in an overseas conflict they have no authority over.
The other is s convicted felon, who is also likely guilty of treason, actively fights democracy and has been caught in blatant lies, wants to take the country back 150 years in civil rights, actively seeking campaign funding by selling out the global climate futures and thinks we should use nukes to combat weather we don’t like.
I don’t know how Americans can choose
I fully agree with you.
But… This comment is a month old, how do you feel now?
We CANNOT get Trump, but Biden is practically endorsing Trump at this point. People are dumb enough to vote for Trump after seeing Biden mumble about
Still the same.
I discussed a similar thing in another thread - regarding Israel there are 35 years of policy and hundreds of years of culture, combined with a military industry complex that ties into the entire US economy. No president can fix that in 3 years.
You absolutely can’t get Trump, and Biden isn’t perfect by any means. But unfortunately those are still the only two choices.
<rant>
I watched this standup special (Chad Daniels) and I found myself getting annoyed at the premise of most of his jokes.
The premise is that there is a far left and a far right and both sides are bad and need to move closer to the middle.
A joke he made, for instance, boiled down to far right were racists while the far left is overly compassionate to living things. See, both sides are bad!
First, his far right example was not an exaggeration. That is literally how people on the far right think. The far left example was a funny exaggeration that almost nobody on the left believes.
Second, even with his exaggeration, the 2 extremes are in no way equivalently extreme. The far right needs to come over significantly before it is equally extreme as the far left.
Anyway, I felt like this whole special was an example of what is wrong with the way society talks about the right and left.
I made a graph:
FL—-——|M|—————————————-FR
</rant>
This whole comment is an example of how some people don’t understand that the fundamental point of actual comedy is to elicit laughter, not clapter for confirming the audience’s biases with a jovial tone.
If you watch stand-up to hear your political team’s talking points in ‘joke’ form, you’re just insecure.
Both sides are bad, votes third party.
This guy gets it
get f*ked. George carlin applies.
100% true. “Both sides” arguments exist SOLELY to deflect from awful things done by Republicans, or detract from positive things done by Democrats.
Not once have I seen it deployed for any other purpose.
Edit for the pedants: I should probably have not led with “100% true” before the sentence where I clearly stated my position. Although I think the delta between what I wrote after that and what is in OP is a difference without a distinction, if some of you want to feel like you really got me, you go right ahead.
You’re 100% assuming motives. “Deployed”, lol.
This is like saying that because we know smoking causes lung cancer, that the ONLY reason anyone smokes is because they’re trying to get lung cancer.
Review Hanlon’s Razor, and stop thinking there’s sinister conspiracies everywhere, it’s bad for your mental health.
Does it actually matter at all what the intent is if the result is Trump winning and full on reducing the United States to a fascist ethnostate?
Does it actually matter at all what the intent is
Yes. Demonizing people not because of who they are, but based on your prejudiced assumptions, is in fact bad, it turns out.
Trump winning and full on reducing the United States to a fascist ethnostate
Are you trying to get people not to take you seriously? Because insane over-the-top exaggeration like this is a very strong strategy toward that end, if so.
The intent of someone’s speech, or even its outcome, does not make it incorrect. A culture of hiding from reality thinking in doing so it will give us certain outcomes is what this practice will create.
Saying something that is technically correct is still wrong if it is done so in a way that causes people to be hurt unnecessarily.
Edit: Strawmaning me while talking about how truth is important is the biggest irony.
So we need to shut people up who’s information we percieve will give us outcomes we don’t like? I guess the nazis gave that ago and if it worked for them I guess we should do the same. But if we have decided to live in a post-truth world of our own creation, how are we going to make an honest assessment of what true information is actually harmful. We could just be lying to ourselves about that too.
Here is a good rule of thumb. Never lie to yourself. Never hide from information. Anything else is just developing anti-intellectual habits.
It kind of reminds me of a quote from And Justice For All from Metallica. “Seeking no truth. Winning is all. Fighting so grim so true so real.”
When both sides frame what is true or false by what will help them win that that’s how you end up with a post truth world. Of course that can be easily corrected by lying to ourselves again and claiming that only one side has blame. There is nothing a lie to ourselves can’t fix.
Never lie to yourself. Never hide from information. Anything else is just developing anti-intellectual habits.
I agree. However, the entirety of your comment fails to address what I’ve said. Would you like to try again?
No. Not really. I think creating a post-truth world is more harmful. The way you get around the “harm” of true information is by encouraging people to process true information more maturely. Not by hiding it. There is no harm in truth by itself.
Why would I want Moloch when the other option is Baal?
Then they better get started earning those votes
both sides aren’t bad.
one side is bad. the other side is a comically evil, fucking nightmare that is going to make sure all future generations for the foreseeable future will suffer things that can be avoided by voting for the “bad” side.
don’t be stupid. one side is banning abortion, is going to go after simple contraceptives next, and will certainly ban gay marriage as soon as possible. their obsession with trans people is just a foot in the door.
No.
Don’t be stupid don’t vote for procorporate genocide supporting trash in the Democrat primaries.
we’re not talking about primaries.
i checked your history and you’re trying so hard. I’d be really surprised if you weren’t a Russian troll.
I’d be really surprised if you weren’t a Russian troll.
Yeah I’ve heard this cope before and I ask every time: Where do you think all the people are who voted “undecided” in the 2024 DNC primaries? Do they just have zero social media presence?
I’ve yet to get a real answer.
again, we’re not talking about primaries.
I am. Deal with it.
lol. there’s nothing to deal with. the primaries are irrelevant. we’re talking about the general election because that’s what the post is about and also what the comment you responded to is about.
if you don’t know how to follow a conversation or make relevant comments, that’s not something for me to “deal with”. it’s something for you to learn in order to be able to socialize without being ridiculed.
You still haven’t answered the question.
You accuse anyone who doesn’t intend on voting for your geriatric procorporate genoicde supporting trash of a candidate of being a Russian troll. But when you’re pressed on the fact that there are citizens who have the right to vote in Democrat primaries and specifically signaled they won’t be voting for Biden you suddenly have nothing to say.
I couldn’t care less about whether you ridicule me. Your policy and strategies are an absolute failure and you still defend it endlessly. Your legacy will be attributed to lead poisoning.
Nah, some of us just aren’t delusional and see how both sides are ineffective, ignore their constituents, corrupt(look at the stock trading of any politician for an example), and a whole host of other problems. Some of us want a party we can actually support, not just “the lesser of two evils”. Itd be nice to have a candidate that you actually want to vote for on their own merits.
But nah, just paint us as whiny conservatives trying to trick you, not your fellow Democrats who are fed up with the shit show we’ve been fed our entire lives. This is one of the most pathetic Democrat Defenses: “if you don’t agree with us, you’re really a smelly conservative!”. Nah, I just don’t agree that you have the ability or desire to actually make things better. And I’m not gonna keep a broken system on life support just for your comfort. I WANT the system to collapse because it’s already a mockery of what it should be. If it collapses, we either go full authoritarian and stop pretending we’re not(so at least we’re finally honest), or maybe, just maybe, a different voice can rise up for once.
Either way, better than voting for Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich and continuing the same broken system for another 100 years.
For all the people down voting me, does the following sound familiar? “Election happens. Told Vote D or a R wins and everything will be worse! Elect a D. They can’t get anything done because the Rs prevent them. Rs proceed to win next election and completely change major laws on a whim. Ds continue to complain that they can’t stop the Rs”. So why would I vote for a party that openly admits they can’t get shit done? The entire Democrat playbook is “The Republicans wouldn’t let us”. Fuck that bullshit. If you can’t see it for the scam it is, you deserve this bullshit. It’s a party of eunichs. It needs to die and be replaced with an actually progressive party, not another shade of R.
This is such a bewildering take. You can yadda yadda corruption on both sides but when the platform of one side is “making your and your neighbors lives better” and the platform of the other side is “straight-up fascism; we want to put people in camps,” the arithmetic is clear.
You’ll never ever ever be able to vote for a perfect candidate. You might as well vote to make your country a better place to live.
Remind me what the Dems actually get done. They CLAIM to be progressives, but oddly they always seem to get stopped. They had how long to codify row vs wade into law and they didn’t. Republicans swooped it away in seconds like it was nothing. So which party actually gets shit done when they’re in power? It’s not the Dems. They’re incredibly ineffectual while the Rs just run the board.
You can say all the nice shit in the world, but if you can’t actually get anything done, you’re worthless.
Honestly at this point, the smartest move Dems could make is voting R. Infiltrate the party that actually gets shit done from he inside and steer them differently. Fill the R party with so many progressives what we move the Overton window back. But that would take concentrated effort and the Dems don’t have the stomach for dirty games, even if those are the rules that need to be played by now.
They had how long to codify row vs wade into law and they didn’t.
Democrats have had 6 months since 1993 with a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, plus control of the house and White House. Outside of that narrow window during Obama’s first term, they would never have been able to codify Roe v Wade. They used that time to pass the ACA.
Exactly my point. They have all that time and can’t get it done because of the Republicans. Republicans got it done tho, didn’t they? So which party holds actual power? So why should I vote D when they can only muster 6 months of actual power in the last 3 decades? Why would I think voting for them would matter at all? Even when elected they’re eunichs. Thanks for proving my point.
Republicans got it done tho, didn’t they?
Shrinking the government, reducing services, shutting down programs and deregulating are all much easier than passing laws to guarantee new rights or build new programs. Democrats’ priorities are generally to build new things, Republicans’ are to obstruct or destroy.
So why should I vote D when they can only muster 6 months of actual power in the last 3 decades?
The Inflation Reduction Act is the single largest clean energy policy ever enacted. Just because Democrats are blocked from achieving all of their goals doesn’t mean they are accomplishing nothing.
Hey look guys! In 30 years the Ds did a thing! That totally balances out the 100s of things the Rs have done in the same time!
You said it yourself “they’re blocked from achieving their goals”. The best supercar in the world is outrun by a toddler if it has no gas. I’d rather vote for a toddler than the guy claiming “we’ll have gas soon. Just as soon as we convince the gas station to sell it to us and the bank to honor our card and…”
I pointed out one recent, big accomplishment. If you’re genuinely unaware of anything else they’ve done, you’re welcome to read some of the lengthy lists others have posted in these comments.
You don’t seem to understand the difference between progress and obstruction.
I understand which party has the power to get things done. And I understand when one party is ineffective at fighting back and should be abandoned for a party that can fight back. You’re stuck in the 2 party mindset. There are numerous other political groups in the US. You could be supporting a labor party, an environmental party, a civil rights party, etc. but instead it’s always “R is evil, so you need to vote for a D, otherwise BOOGYMAN!”. Or how about we empower the other political parties and start having real nuanced political discourse?
Because Us vs Them is a hell of a lot easier.
Bitch and moan about your ideals all you want. The reality is the Rs win, the Ds lose, and the Ds just keep whining that the means ol Rs are stopping them instead of changing tactics and listening to constuents who are tired of out of touch old white guys deciding the future of our country. The Democrat party suffers from a serious image issue and this constant “well vote for us anyways” just becomes pathetic over the years.
You fundamentally misunderstand what’s necessary for Republicans to accomplish their goals vs Democrats to accomplish their goals. Overturning Roe and codifying Roe are two completely different branches of the government. You really need to brush up on civics.
Who got what they wanted? Rs. Who lost what they wanted? Ds.
It’s the same story over and over but you want to convince us that “this time it’s different!”.
Well, when you guys actually start getting shit done, I’ll support you. But if it’s “at least you’re not voting for X”, nah, go jump off a cliff. It’s the party of doers vs the party of “we try really hard but somehow keep failing and our only idea is to blame the other guys”.
The “vote democrat to save democracy, you must vote one party, … for democracy” seems like Orwellian doublespeak at this point, because if you look at the numbers, democracy is about to be heavily eroded over time by the democrats. I’m not even registered to vote, but it’s obvious to see the tactics being pushed and enacted.
But both sides ARE bad. Still, go vote.
It’s ok to be critical of our politicians regardless of which “team” they’re on. We should all be holding their feet to the fire every day.
