Regular reminder that being an asshole is not a symptom of any form of neurodivergence. (You can replace “neurodivergent” with depressed, anxious, bipolar, etc. and the diagram works equally well)
ETA: social faux pas, awkwardness, and genuine symptoms of neurodivergence don’t make you an asshole. I shouldn’t have to say this? An “asshole” is someone who enacts a pattern of abusive, controlling, harassing, and/or harmful behavior with no remorse or concern for how other people are affected.
I guess MasterCard is either autistic or asshole now
Definitely asshole at the very least
Yeah I have two childhood friends that are brothers. Their other brother is very autistic. When we were kids a lot of people didn’t understand autism enough to get that while yes, his autism did affect the way in which he was a tremendous asshole, it didn’t cause it. He happened to have a shit personality and disability level autism
I agree but would qualify my agreement with a note:
Some of our neurodivergent traits come across as assholeish or rude behavior and while most of us try and temper and mask it does slip out especially in high stress situations.
Intention matters.
I think it’s my responsibility to explain to coworkers and make super sure they understand how I am especially after a high stress event (for me that’d likely be a server outage in production).
This is true! But there’s a very easy way to tell the difference.
When you find out you hurt someone’s feelings, do you apologize, express how terrible you feel about it, and try to do better? Not an asshole.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
Saying the wrong thing doesn’t make you a jerk. Not caring about other people’s feelings, does.
You’re still making it a bit too easy for you. “Not caring about other people’s feelings” is very close to “Not able to understand why somebody reacts and feels a certain way” but is definitely not the same thing.
I’m a parent to (at least one diagnosed so far) autistic child and there are plenty of situations in which this very kind, friendly and empathic person is simply unable to understand why one of the other siblings reacted as they did. Has nothing to do with whether they care or not.
This is valid criticism and I’m going to sit with it.
All the same, most of the (adult) autistic folks I’ve known in my life have been quick to apologize and take responsibility, even when other peoples’ reactions don’t make sense to them.
Absolutely. Part of masking is to emulate behavior you’ve observed even though you don’t understand it.
The child in question often need us parents to point out what happened and then they’re able to say the correct things. What I meant was that it’s not obvious to them that someone got offended - at all - to begin with.
Well said and point well taken.
I always encourage people to communicate, gently and clearly, what the other person did that was hurtful. I have so much empathy for people who are clueless (hi, hello, it’s me). But no empathy at all for people who callously, intentionally harass and hurt others.
OK, but being able to understand the reasons why a person is upset is irrelevant to how you respond when you’re made aware that your actions upset them.
Again, if you apologize and try to understand your mistake, you’re not an asshole.
“Not understanding other people’s feelings” is called lacking empathy, which is a common autism symptom. I’m saying this because it seems like you might be confusing “empathy” with caring about people, a misconception which harms people who lack empathy.
That’s an old misconception. Autistic people don’t lack empathy any more than neurotypical people. Autistic people may not react the way a neurotypical person expects somebody with empathy to react, but that doesn’t mean there’s no feeling of empathy. Sometimes we can easily understand someone’s feelings, but still not know what we’re expected to do in response to that information.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
I often inconvenience people in a particular way. (I’m very frequently late.) I apologize a lot but then I keep doing the same thing. It’s really hard for me not to, I get why this frustrates people, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to put up with the inconvenience. However, people often assume that I keep inconveniencing them because I don’t respect them, and I want them to understand that that’s not what’s going on.
Hey that’s valid! A good friend of mine has the exact same thing. He’s up front about it, he apologizes when it’s excessive, and he’s more than happy to explain why it’s difficult for him. It’s just a thing, and if I’m going to be his friend, that means accepting it about him.
In other words, he’s done his best to help me understand him. Now it’s my turn to not be an asshole.
There’s absolutely a point where I’m not going to mask for the sake of social niceties. I try my best to not be a jerk though, but there are so many situations where I’ve been called rude for not following the NT script. For example, stopping someone, saying I don’t want to have a conversation right now, and walking away. Not an excuse to avoid difficult talks either, just when it’s a convo about whatever random thing and I don’t have the capacity to listen.
Intention matters.
It matters up to a point where the negatives outweigh the good intentions, same as everyone else.
The tough part is people hide when they’re offended, so you can’t even avoid doing the same faux pas in the future.
They just gossip behind your back about you being a jerk. Problem solved!
I think it depends. My son is deep on the spectrum. He’s pretty pleasant, and he can tell if he’s making someone upset or angry, but often has no idea why.
I could absolutely see him being rude or making someone uncomfortable without knowing it, and in many cases I think it would be a challenge to help him even comprehend how or why he was doing so, even if he could tell it was happening.
One of the things that makes me feel the worst for him is when he can tell he’s not handling a situation “correctly” but has no idea why. It really upsets him.
So yeah, I cut people who I think might be ND some slack.
Your kid doesn’t sound like an asshole, so IMO all good.
There’s one ND guy I have to interact with a lot, who has told me point blank that he enjoys watching me be miserable and seeing me squirm. No amount of trying to be nice has quelled this; in fact, it actuqlly started when I was making an earnest attemptnto be his friend, and he decided to fuck with me to “see what would happen.” I am, as far as I can tell, the only person he does this with. He’s also WILDLY homophobic, but he gets off scot free because most people know he’s ND.
My policy since this shit started is that being ND (even heavily, as in his case) means everyone should be LENIENT, not willing to let fucking anything fly.
To be clear, Im also ND, and most of my friends are too. Its just this one fucking guy, which hey, is the point of this meme!
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Chances are he thinks this is what it means to be a male friend. That doesn’t make it right of course but that’s probably what’s going on. This is likely due to him being abused as a child in some way and now he thinks it is normal to abuse others.
…no. He is making the active choice to be malevolent, there is no concept of friendship here. He has friends; I am not one. I have made my boundaries clear, and he has just said that he doesnt feel like respecting them.
Also, this is exactly the kind of overapologetic bs that means I can’t just tell him off, because then Im the bad guy for being mean to someone with an imagined tragic backstory.
You aren’t being mean. Honestly it sounds like you went out of your way to be nice.
I just think that chances are there is note going on. It really isn’t on you and he may just dislike you as a person.
Seems like some users thought this thread was a free pass to question neurospicy folks legitimacy regardless of assholeishness. Cool lemmy.world, cool /s
It’s because the phrase “neurodivergence” is an umbrella term. It’s all but useless in the context given. That’s a fact no matter how cool and breezy you are about people with disabilities.
I have an older brother with cerebral palsy - I know no other life than one that sympathizes with people with disabilities. I dedicated my life to helping children with disabilities. I have worked with children with cerebral palsy, autism, adhd, dyspraxia, downs syndrome, retts syndrome, ALS and many other conditions and brain injuries for a chunk of my life spanning over 20 years. I was treating them from before Ritalin was used to treat patients with ADHD (in England at least).
The term “neurodivergence” is not useful in the context it is used in here. Everyone is neurodivergent, and the terms popularity modern times has tweaked it to mean something else that is not clear. A social media “tag” used as an umbrella term is just that. It’s not a diagnosis or an excuse because it’s not one thing.
It is exactly like saying “i have fibromyalgia” - because that is also an umbrella term that leads to the question, “What does that mean in this context?”
The umbrella term “neurodivergence” includes both conditions that aren’t an excuse and are an excuse for behaving like an asshole. Anyone can claim they are neurodivergent because they are. Therefore some people will use the term as an excuse for behaving badly no matter what their quirks are.
“I don’t care what’s wrong with you. If you’re an asshole, you’re an asshole”
This has stuck with me for about 15 years now. A neurodivergent stage crew member who was consistently an asshole was being an asshole again, so this other kid just yelled at him and told him off. Everyone in the room gave him the shocked Pikachu face because he yelled at the ND kid. Someone said “dude, you cant yell at him” and then he laid down this quote.
@5oap10116 @isaaclyman Being diagnosed with all kinds of crap before they finally settled on AuDHD, I’ve always sworn by “Diagnosises can be an explanation but never a shield.”
Own your shit.
I feel like I’m missing something here.
Something many groups need to hear, not just the ND crowd.
Damn right.
Don’t yell at people. The right answer is to tell them that they are a problem privately.
The sentiment is right, but using the phrase wrong with you, might be a little harsh. There’s nothing wrong with them, they are who they are.
None of that excuses being an asshole though.
Wrong with you would be more like if they’re going through a breakup and they aren’t themselves, or going through grief over something etc.
But directed at a ND person where it can come off as being about their ND isn’t good.
Edit: “I don’t care what’s going on with someone, if they’re an asshole they’re an asshole” would be a better option
I don’t go around as a 30 something saying the words of a 15 yr old. Yes it is not as tactful as it should be and I understand the nuance but the idea is the same and I’m not going to change what happened.
I’m not going to change what happened.
Thats also fair. It’s a story you’re telling and it’s what happened.
This looks like a MasterCard. I can’t unsee it.
Credit companies are indeed assholes
The diagram also looks like a butt. Assholes confirmed.
But are they neurodivergent?
I just clicked this post to write this 😭 🙏
I have an overwhelming urge to shop now.
This meme brought to you by pɹɐɔɹǝʇsɐɯ
Elon Musk.
Hell in the UK we had the (ex?) host of MasterChef, Greg Wallace, accused of being inappropriate with women in the workplace and making them feel unsafe and uncomfortable around him - Nothing illegal (that I know of), sure, but enough that he was rightfully dropped from whatever broadcaster was employing him.
Cut to a week into the tabloid media meltdown, Greg claims he “thinks he’s on the spectrum” as an explanation for his sexually explicit and creepy behaviour around women. The usual shit where you’re neuro typical until you’re a prick then you’re actually an autistic smol bean uWu.
When that didn’t help, he then showed his true colours by claiming the “typical” kind of woman (I’m assuming he’s referring to the trope of “ugly” women complaining about sexual harassment) making the complaints that got him fired.
I think a fair number of self-proclaimed “neurodivergent” folks just like it because: a) They think it’s a free pass to be an asshole b) They think it indicates some sort of superpower with no downsides and that they are superior to “normal” people.
Knowing some clearly sincerely neurodivergent people I tend to be highly skeptical when people assert that status in an interaction where I wouldn’t otherwise be able to tell.
Masking exists you know. Just because you can hide it doesn’t mean there isn’t more under the surface. This is more of a Autism thing but I think some ADHD people also mask.
You’re right, but also there are still a ton of people that pretend or think they have some type of mental condition when in actuality they don’t.
I have diagnosed OCD (by a medical professional) and I’ve only ever told about two friends in my entire life because the millions of gross people around the world that say they have OCD for the most normal fucking things that everyone In the world can relate to.
Somebody saying they have OCD is so fucking cringe to me now because of these morons that I’m scared to tell anyone even if I’m close to them.
That’s fair honestly as a lot of people think they relate to OCD. I’ve even been called OCD even though I’m very sure that’s not something that impacts me.
It’s weird to me though because I’ve had a psychiatrist tell me I probably have ocd, but left it as just an anxiety disorder unspecified (ocd thought patterns that spiral into panic attacks), but I find a lot of these people are more thinking of feeling uncomfortable with any mess rather than spending your entire vacation worried you left the door unlocked or struggling with anxious thought loops that you can’t force yourself to stop thinking about.
So, for some honesty, I feel like there’s been a culture of folks treating “neurotypical” almost like a slur, like “neurodivergent” means better and thus folks thinking they need a diagnosis.
I know someone that self-diagnosed as autistic and was very excited to “finally make it formal” and shopped for a therapist that was qualified to diagnose and had even diagnosed a friend of theirs as on the spectrum. They were so pissed when after a couple of months of sessions the therapist continued to decline to issue a diagnosis. They couldn’t just be normal. I think most people I’ve heard personally declare themselves to be neurodivergent to be roughly in this camp.
I think popular internet culture is teaching people that a normal person has zero struggles with things like getting out of bed in the morning or being on time, and that if you have any whiff of not liking to do some unpleasant part of daily life then you are neurodivergent. It also tends to teach that neurodivergent people are smarter. I think this serves to dilute the reality of those with more serious issues. Similar to how a flood of “service animals” has diminished the experience of those with sincere need for them.
neurotypical feels like a slur
Genuinely, as someone who’s been on both the moderating and recieving end of communal moderation as a traumatized trans and disabled person, this topic is an iceberg. Social osratcization and bannishment shouldnt be weilded heavy handedly.
If you feel so oppressed, be glad that people empathize with you for your congruence with mental state, brain chemisty and so much more that we barely even have words much less proper understanding at large for, which is all lumped in to “neurodivergent”, and that your every choice is not medicalized and psychoanalyzed for being so bold as to be out about it.
Im over the respectability politics ☮️
It isn’t possible to fake being ND. Faking it would require someone to mask like a ND person does which doesn’t seem likely. Any therapist who still is going off of dated information and stigmas should lose there ability to practice.
What do you even mean? Of course its possible to pretend and fake being neurodivergent, many many people do. You may not fake it correctly, and that’s why these people might not be able to get a real diagnosis
The point of that story was that someone I knew that saw an actual therapist still said they were ND and denied the therapist’s opinion that they were NT. They had a friend that did receive a diagnosis from that same therapist and based on my interactions with that friend, I could definitely understand. They went shopping for what they thought was an easy diagnosis and failed to get one, but declared the therapy just isn’t good and they were done with therapy and they will continue to declare themselves to be ND anyway, because they know they are.
I strongly suspect a lot of self proclaimed ND folks are declaring so without any diagnosis or even against a professional opnion to the contrary. There’s too much romanticism of it and of course it causes some people to gravitate towards it. The end result being a dilution of societal accomodations toward ND born out of skepticism of some generally obnoxious folks.
Self diagnosis is completely valid. I’m pretty sure NT people aren’t going around trying to be ND. At the end of the day if they relate to ND they probably are one. I think ND people are much more common than society wants us to believe
Prior to the 90s, I think your perspective is correct, that no one would go out of their way to claim a condition they did not have.
But the 90s blessed high functioning autism as Asperger’s, and a bunch of smart computer people at the same time started getting rich. The popular take away for the random person was that Asperger’s meant:
- You are smarter than other people
- You can’t be expected to be considerate to others or consider their viewpoints, because that’s just the way you would be
- You can’t be expected to really talk to people you don’t feel like talking to at all
So now you had a condition that confers intelligence at a time when computer nerd was suddenly respectable, and a condition that allows one to fully cave to discomfort that almost everyone feels to some extent (though the intent was to describe people utterly incapable, the practical result has been a lot of people having normal levels of discomfort wallowing in it).
Plus the modern terminology of “typical” versus “divergent”, where people naturally want to be “divergent” (so long as they are divergent just like everybody they like) and people generally don’t like the sound of being “typical”.
Again, this is not the professional perspective, it’s the layman’s perspective that drives people to self-diagnose as a path to superiority and/or not dealing with fairly normal levels of discomfort when dealing with other people.
You hit the nail on the head IMO, basically if someone says they are neurodivergent or brings up a mental issue they claim to have for no reason at all, like just to tell you hey I’m neurodivergent, I typically assume they aren’t and just pretend to believe them.
I’m ADHD and probably on the spectrum. Most of my friends are some level of both too.
There are still assholes who are also neurodivergent. I’ve met some. I avoid them. I will generally get along with other neurospicy people, especially if their combination is closer to my own, but an asshole is still an asshole.
That hasn’t been my experience but the demographic I hang about still has some stigma associated with being ND, so they wouldn’t “admit” to it unless it was relevant/apparent.
Curious if it’s regional or age related.
For example, at work where there’s a lot of 50+ people shaping the culture, I don’t think ND would be seen as an asset.
However, to me those that grew up when Asperger’s first hit the scene seemed more likely to treat it as “cool autism”, and migrated over to “high functioning autistic” when the DSM ditched it as a distinct diagnosis. I seem to recall some commentary at the time that the Asperger’s as a distinct diagnosis was more detrimental due to its popularity, and while formally the criteria for Asperger’s versus Autism would be similar, there was a sense that people should be more reluctant to diagnose as autistic than they were to diagnose Asperger’s.
I don’t think ADHD ever enjoyed status as a “cool” diagnosis though, but certainly in the mid 80s was overdiagnosed in children.
I don’t think ADHD ever enjoyed status as a “cool” diagnosis though
the last couple years on tiktok, but its tiktok so whatever
I’ve been called an asshole many times. I think most people think I’m a nice person, but to the wrong person I’m a complete asshole. If I find out you support cops I’m suddenly the biggest asshole alive. If you’re a capitalist? Guess what, asshole mode wants to turn on.
That’s fine in echo chambers, but when you’re in a diverse group? I had to learn social skills early on as a kid, and not every autistic child learns how to adapt to a social situation. I put my example as a hard truth: We can’t applaud people being assholes to certain people and then be appalled when assholes remain assholes to those aren’t the acceptable group of people to be an asshole to. If I want to remain socially acceptable around cop-supporters, I have to adopt different social ‘postures’ like respectfully disagreeing instead of calling them boo-tlicking piggies. My tolerance for respectful disagreement only lasts so long, though, when my under-the-breath stuff starts coming out and then I know I can’t be around people if I want to be accepted.
What gets rewarded gets repeated.
You do not have to be friends with anyone! :D
I thought what we had was special 😢
Reminds me of once when a friend told me a story how someone watched his dick when he was peeing. When he got angry someone calmed him by sayong “Don’t worry, he is just gay.”
Yeah, why does this make sexual harasment any better?
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I’m direct and highly value honesty, but I’ve learned that’s no excuse for lacking tact. Being a minimal degree of kind and polite to neurotypical people isn’t particularly difficult, it’s just learning to interface with someone whose emotional drivers you may not completely share. It’s easier than learning to interface with a nonverbal species like a cat or a parrot.
How did you learn? I’m asking because that’s not something I’m seeing discussed here.
I don’t even think most of the commenters here have given it any thought.
It’s kind of important to the topic because at least part of the problem is that education is lacking both in NT and ND people as far as how we both developed healthy boundaries to mitigate “being an asshole”.
If nobody tells you your behavior is not acceptable in a way you can comprehend then it’s a communication issue and and education issue. If it’s that then we should discuss that.
I started by reading “How to Gain Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. It’s a bit dated but was required for a college course. It helped me realize there were certain actions/routines that would give me consistently okay results with most NTs. Not great, just okay, but okay was a huge improvement.
That helped alleviate the often crippling anxiety I felt in many social situations with new people. Free to actually think when around NTs who weren’t charmed by my ND data dumps, perplexing eye contact, and random obsessions, I was able to actively observe social interactions between myself and others. From there, it was a matter of trying different things and learning to lick my wounds when I blew it. My standard apology for doing something that made someone uncomfortable was along the lines of "I’m so sorry, that came across wrong. What I was trying to convey is (X). I’m not the best communicator sometimes, but I’m working on it. Can we start over? " with direct eye contact and a strong, chagrined, “practiced in the mirror” smile.
That’s the jist of it. Getting over the basic skills and confidence hump is the hardest. Once you have those, it’s really no different that practicing a sport or playing a game. It’s learning to act but for the purpose of being genuine with those who might not understand your natural inclinations.
Yes, but it’s IMHO not as clear cut. Some of the things we do because of our executive function disorder can be interpreted as us being assholes by those we interact with. One can act like an asshole at times and not intrinsically be one. Some things are perceived as assholeish by some people but not others.
So my take on this is that they still need to be told they are behaving like an asshole. The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason. Like " Go away and come back when you have yourself under control and sorry this is hard for you."
Or a simple, “hey, that was rude. It hurt my feelings.” Most of the ND people I know would respond, “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to be a jerk. I’ll do better.”
Not all situations are simple. Someone is lashing out at people because their mother died. Everyone is understanding. But if you tell the person who is lashing out to cut it out because they’re being an asshole, then suddenly you’re an asshole, not the person behaving as an asshole initially.
There are a lot of similar situations with similar or other severity.
On the other hand, it’s not always something we actively do. If I lose focus on something I was doing with someone or on a conversation, I didn’t do it on purpose, and I literally couldn’t help it. I have definitely been called an asshole for it before, but calling me out on it doesn’t do anything but make me feel like shit cause it happened again, and as I know it always will, I now know you’ll always think I’m being one
There are simply fine lines. One problem I’ve seen is ND once diagnosed using their ND diagnosis as a crutch rather than a tool to understand and work with themselves.
Certainly there’s a level of “This person is ND and will never behave in a NT way” that society needs to accept and get over. But on the flip side, there are certainly ND people that will use it as an excuse to be an asshole rather than looking for tools to minimize the impact both on them and others.
I wear and need glasses. I’d be an asshole if I drove without them even though I have a medical condition that makes it hard for me to see without glasses. A ND diagnosis doesn’t mean that no rules need apply, it means that a struggle in life will be figuring out the best way to work around them.
Intention vs Impact. I recognize that it might not be my intention and it might be fully outside my control, but I was being an ass. Being called out when I do it is good and important, because it helps me figure out next steps - how do I recover from what I missed, how do I make them feel heard, do I have the type of relationship with this person to share my ND?
Part of accepting myself as ND is being able to be called an asshole, accept I was being an asshole, but understanding that it doesn’t make me a bad person and I shouldn’t feel bad about it since it was outside my control but use it as a chance to figure out the best next steps.
I think (hope) most people can tell the difference between symptoms of atypical neurology (lateness, awkwardness, forgetfulness, zoning out et al) and hurtful/abusive/controlling behavior. And if they can’t, they’re just not our people. That’s a whole different Venn diagram though
The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason.
There are tons of things that people do that are considered asshole or not asshole depending on who is involved, the context, and intentions.
Pointing out someone’s addiction issues is often a social offense because ‘everyone knows it’ and it causes trouble. But interventions are things, and friends calling someone out in public might be the way it gets through to them.
Sometimes people make fun of others in public which is fine if both of them are fine with it and they avoid certain topics, but those can vary widely by person and the audience.
Hell, pointing out that someone is being an asshole is often considered inappropriate!
