- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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I’m all for peaceful environmental protesting, but destruction of property and historic monuments/items only makes your movement look worse. News will spin it as the protesters being vandals and go about their day. Most people won’t think beyond that and will probably associate environmental activism with negative things such as vandalism or whatever else their favorite news calls what they’re doing.
Powder, its quite likely water soluble
Yup, its starch based and water soluble. It’ll come off with a little water, no harm done.
It’s a realy interesting tightrope. If you just stand in a field holdong signs your don’t really get media attention. in order to get that attention you must do something that grinds peoples’ gears enough to have media outlets pay attention to them. But that kind of action needs to skirt the vandalism vector, as otherwise people would be like ‘they removed the unimportant turnip of Weddelsex, but I dont care’ on the other hand You also cannot be too radical, as it will hurt your cause.
It would be great if enviromentalists had a voice that could be audible over the control over media that is enacted by big companies (murdoch f.i.), but theres little big money in the message of climate awareness, and it’s a message most people dont’t reallt want to hear.
So… You take aim at objects that are deemed worthwhile and important for the people you wish to reach and try to allign your message with the importance of those ancient and important works.
It’s a losing battle as people choose comfort over complicated issues (seemingly) out of their control as annoyance, furthermore being made co-defendant in the case of climate destruction is rather jarring, therefore people are shy to pick up on them, as why should the burden be on them?
So theres no way to positively make your message. Therefore any demonstration is jarring per se, even if peaceful it needs to be at least known, and ironicaaly the best way to do that is to do something outrageaus, as our reptile brain goes very hard on that.
There’s no need for the media to spin anything, the protestors committed vandalism and, unless they are protesting the existence of prehistoric monuments, they did a really shitty job of even calling attention to their cause.
good thing no historic monuments/items were destroyed and your comment is completely off topic.
Rebecca Watson has an interesting video on this. The way things are going right now, people in 50 years will look back and say activists were the only people trying something, while most of us just waited for the shit to hit the fan.
Normally I’m tepid on this kinda headline getting, but I feel like Stonehenge of all things is not the ideal target for the supposed intent of these kinds of protests.
But it raises the question why some paint on some big old rocks is more outrageous than anything the oil & gas lobby did in the past 50 years.
No it really doesn’t, getting called stupid is far below the standard of even the minimal consequences oil and gas companies have faced in those 50 years. Or the public condemnation of such.
These people are the “bUt DeMs SaMe!” of facing the consequences of their own actions. The only way you could genuinely think nothing is being done and that some forever student college kids are getting harsher treatment than the most hated companies in the world is if you’re in a position of blinding privilege that obscures the real world movement in the situation.
I have the suspicion for a while that the people behind those new climate movements are paid by oil companies and others to make climate activists look bad, and shift the public opinion about climate action.
All the actions seem to deliberately targeted to anger the mainstream about them.
Making the naive climate activists at the front the tool of conglomerates.
deleted by creator
Idk man, sometimes reality is stranger than fiction. Like wasn’t there reporting about the US recently in which the military was spreading antivax misinformation in the Philippines and other countries. Russia and China has their own cyber armies too. It’s not too much of a stretch that large conglomerates and corpos may have their own private propaganda wings either.
You’re not wrong.
I also saw some evidence further down this thread that oil companies provide funding to this group that I had previously been unaware of. I deleted my comment shortly after that but it might still be showing up because federation can be screwy.
Hmmm, I would keep an open mind though. It’s not like these oil companies are dumb. They know that their reputation is bad. Slip a few million into the pockets of their enemies and “leak” information that they “the big baddies” are funding these seemingly unlikeable people, and that would likely slowly damage their reputation beyond repair. Although that may just be some light conspiracism on my part.
Edit Addendum: I do think that whatever actions that just stop oil has done are ultimately harmless to whatever object they “”“”“vandalize”“”“”. Their actions are very good at getting public attention on climate change, and maybe even boosting donations to less radical climate activist groups.
The intent is to get people to talk about them and their message.
Well known monuments are great for that kinda stuff.
Yeah, we’re all talking about what unhinged dicks they are and wishing for them to be disbanded. Great job!
The best part is I haven’t seen the name of the organization mentioned once in the comments so far.
Why not? They used starch. It’s not like Stonehenge is actually damaged. And using symbols people care about is the only way to convey that the crisis we’re facing is actually threatening things we care about. Everything else will be, and has been, ignored.
Because it was built by Naturepath druids.
They vandalized a structure that represents the purest distillment europeans may have achieved of their ideal vision thus far in human history.
That’d be like me demanding bike infrastructure by bombing Amsterdam.
I’m not sure I’d describe practitioners of human sacrifice in quite the same way, myself.
Off to the bog with you
No, Just Stop Oil is not an “activist” group. They’re in cahoots with the enemy. They’re defamation, and their intent is to give the radical right something to point to.
Just Stop Just Stop Oil.
EDIT: There are waaaaaaay too many assumptions happening in this thread.
Exactly what I came to say. Those guys ara activists pro-oil performing a false flagg attack.
Huh. This is actually the most sensible answer.
I once read a pretty good write up somewhere on Reddit with proof that they were getting reasonably large financial support from the daughter of an oil baron, and it’s unclear if she supports the left or right.
On the other hand, a friend of a friend was arrested at a just stop oil rally in Manchester, UK a few months back, and I know him well enough to absolutely believe he thought he was doing what was best for the world, although I’m unsure if he’d deface anything.
Those two things are not incongruous. Your friend was deceived by the leadership who is in the pocket of oil companies.
“Protests must be polite and not ruffle any feathers” is what I’m hearing.
Sorry. But as climate change gets worse and corporations continue to annihilate the living beings on this planet while governments uphold their ability to do so, the protests will only become more radical. We’re long past the point of polite protests, and they didn’t work.
“Protests must be polite and not ruffle any feathers” is what I’m hearing.
I don’t think that protests have to be polite, however protests do have to be productive. If your environmental group’s political agitation only results in turning public opinion away from the greater movement…I’m not sure if that’s a productive use of political capital.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to question a group’s motivation who are participating in unproductive political agitation. Especially considering that their funding comes from an oil heiress, who could be using her vast fortune to be lobbying to the people whom actually have access to the power that can bring about real change.
the protests will only become more radical.
I’d hardly say paying some teens to “vandalize” a painting that your family owns is really a radical act of protest. Now if they were conducting these types of actions against oil companies, or the political bodies who support them… That would be radical.
I’m sorry dog but spray painting an ancient wonder isn’t an environmental protest.
It’s corn starch. The ancient wonder suffers more defacement in the form of erosion because it rains every 4 seconds in the UK. Stonehenge will be perfectly okay.
My wording was trash. It’s not so much the “damage” done but that it doesn’t feel like a productive protest and that it’ll piss of more people than anything.
Non-violently blocking the entrance to an oil refinery = good protest
Defacing ancient monument temporarily = bad protest
More or less. Painting the jets was pretty awesome too. I’m just afraid the monument is going to make fewer people take them seriously.
Radical in my mind is burning down an oil plant. Going after a piece of history is disgusting. At least ruffle the feathers of the people you’re standing up to.
I’ve read the other replies to my comment, but yours is the only counter that I mostly agree with.
Yes, going after an oil plant would certainly be a much more radical form of protest. The main issue is that targeting something like that carries massive risk and is unfathomably challenging. That isn’t to say they shouldn’t do it though.
My comment was more a response to some of the general negative sentiment that I see in response to other protests that are disruptive. It’s usually reactionary claims of “you’re making people mad, so it’s counterproductive”, while ignoring the fact that nothing else has worked.
Protests should be disruptive in that they incite change, not in that they incite rage. This.
Protests will always incite rage. The question is “is it justified?”. In this case, sure, but your unhinged comment that started this thread is just reactionary drivel.
and somebody else should be taking that kind of risk for us, for you?
This is so hilariously wrong. There’s a lot of stuff I won’t admit to since this is a public account and a public identity. Kairos. What I don’t support, however, is vandalism of historical monuments. Especially when the monument in question is so incredibly irrelevant to the crisis at hand.
There’s a lot of stuff I won’t admit to since this is a public account and a public identity.
haha
Yes, and?
you got some proof for that?
https://whynow.co.uk/read/who-is-funding-just-stop-oil-the-billionaires-backing-the-art-vandals
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/10/climate/climate-protesters-paid-activists.html
Sorry about the Times article, it’s a citation used on Wikipedia. Top one is not paywalled.
So let‘s talk about the first article. It‘s written by art critic Alexander Adams who likes to talk about things like „why the Left hates good art“
https://soundcloud.com/user-923838732/alexander-adams-why-the-left-hates-good-art
Just the style of writing in this article gives away a lot:
The self-professed aims of these organisations and their millionaire backers are to bypass politics and implement radical measures upon the world’s population without democratic consultation.
the referenced piece here is written by a Breitbart editor by the way.
Anyway, so Just Stop Oil are going to bypass the world‘s democratic order? Yeah? By demanding them to follow through with their climate pledges? Oh man.
Also, it is no news, that the Getty heir is contributing to various funds, so what. I am a landlord and support Extinction Rebellion, does that make their actions inauthentic?
The reality is that the UK is using pretty straight forward laws to prevent this kind of protest, they don‘t need some kind of internationalist cabal to do that for them.
There’s no proof but what else could be these people’s problem? They have to know what they’re doing to the image of people who do care about the environment. It’s not like they’re helping. I don’t get it.
it doesn‘t seem logical to you that some people are freaking out because everybody is talking about climate change while it is clearly happening and it is becoming obvious that too little is being done too late?
Man I agree with you. I just feel sick when I see harm being done to such an ancient piece of history. What reason is there for it? Go after something actually related to the problem at least.
I think very little can be done to cause public outrage, which is what they want to do. This did it. Also I see no lasting damage being done to Stone Henge. And that‘s true for all their actions, as far as I know.
But are their actions causing public outrage at: a) the causes and purveyors of climate change, or b) the people protesting climate change?
I don’t think the “any attention is good attention” adage applies to something as politically polarized as climate change.
fair point. I think it is heart breaking that they seem to be losing this battle. No matter what kind of protest they choose, I keep hearing: Well, that‘s not the kind of protest I would support. So yeah, maybe they are at a dead end. But maybe not because they chose the wrong kind of protest, but because the public don‘t want change. Look at the European elections. It seems the other side‘s propaganda works a lot better, yeah.
There’s no proof
Then shut it until you can show evidence.
All I’m really trying to say is their methods make the environmental movements look bad. I hate that. I want things to get better. I don’t think they’re doing anything to help that. Go after something relevant.
MLK’s protests made the civil rights movement look bad. People fucking hated him at the time, despite how history has whitewashed him.
Every effective protest pisses reactionaries and “moderates” off. If it doesn’t piss them off, it isn’t effective.
Except this doesn’t make me care about oil one damn bit. What I do care about it harsh penalties for the perpetrators(including community service and paying for the damage to be undone) and protecting heritage sites like this from other shitty humans. Its not activism, it’s vandalism. It has nothing to do with oil. It would be the same as setting the Mona Lisa on fire and screaming about oil. It’s just unhinged.
If that were true, wouldn’t their shenanigans be more destructive? Soup over a glass protected painting and colored corn starch on a monument are not really rage inducing.
it adds credibility. if they actually destroyed stone henge i doubt even the hardest anarchists would follow them
News about climate change: i sleep
News about climate protests: REAL SHIT?
I hate how people are more interested in talking about protests than actual climate change.
Climate change is being talked every single goddamn day. It’s been a constant thing people talk for a long while. Sometimes it’s overshadowed by other topics but the talk has never stopped. This shit isn’t some silenced issue. The issue isn’t how much people are talking but how little people are doing.
It doesn’t help several of these protests have been proven to be started BY polluting companies to discredit climate protests.
Or you fell for the propaganda that’s discrediting them.
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Far too little is being done against climate change, on every level - socially, politically, economically, individually. One would have to wonder what the fuck is happening if we didn’t have some form of protest. They are necessarily going to become more extreme as time goes by, and they will have every right to do so.
People will use this to galvanize efforts against climate action, and it will work. If you want to seriously do something, go after the people causing the crisis.
Activists (try to) do that as well. But it’s much harder to get close to a rich person or their property, than it is to do something in public spaces. They, too, have to see what they can do with their limited resources.
Next, the media coverage is very unequal, as well as reader’s interest. You are much more likely to click on an article covering a potentially outrageous action, than you are to read about something which does not bother anyone. Although you can rest assured, these things are tried and done frequently.
So naturally, to the uninvolved reader, it may seem as if activists don’t do anything but stupid stunts. And naturally, each outsider seems to think they have a much better grasp of strategy and what actions might make sense than the people who are actually involved in these things.
Of course, a particular action can still be silly. I just want to draw attention to biases at play, in general.
And if you really have a much better idea how to do something about the climate crisis, then go ahead and shine as an example. Not only would you author an actually impactful action (which in itself should be reason enough), you could also show all these rookie activists how to get things done. If your example is convincing, you should see less media coverage about inferior actions.
Cool. How?
Do crimes
How is that gonna help?
How is that gonna help?
It will inspire people to take more drastic action, and highlight the urgency of the cause in a way that targets those who are causing it. It’s also more likely to create sympathy, since the ones causing the problem are the ones being punished for it.
The climate crisis is not caused by certain individuals.
Policy is what drives the climate crisis, and policy is primarily controlled by the rich and powerful, especially in countries like the US where corporate lobbying reigns supreme. You could argue that it’s ultimately capitalist incentives that create this paradigm, but I would say that those incentives are upheld by the same powerful individuals who benefit from them.
tl;dr, the climate crisis is caused by certain individuals.
the whole “the climate crisis isn’t the fault of people” is an excuse for the religious and rich and stupid to continue with business as usual until the environment collapses and we are all dead
reasoning with them is like trying to de-program a cult member (the religious), get a drug addict to give up drugs (the rich and their avarice), or teach a windows user to learn linux (the stupid and learning new things that make sense)
the intelligent people need to stop trying to reason with these three tar pit groups and force them to adhere to our will
but the reality is that this should have happened 50 to 100 years ago and it’s probably too late. we’re sort of of at the “is it better to be in the blast zne or slightly outside the blast zne” phase of environmental collapse. the problem is mostly religion, which has doomed us.
It’s particularly funny because Stonehenge is almost entirely a reconstruction and not a partially destructive one at that. Iirc there are even legit photos of the henge stones in piles on the ground.
Ed: you can down vote but it’s true, it’s been continually knocked down and rebuilt throughout its history.
Climate protesters seem to have a knack for doing really irrelevant shit to bring attention to climate change.
No one dies? No one loses their balls? No beatings?
Is the planet dying or not? If so wtf is powder paint gonna do except fuck it up more???
Look at the raging reactions in the comments to a little bit of starch. If they would actually destroy something, let alone hurt someone, they’d be framed as terrorists and prosecuted in a heartbeat.
They are doing it to get attention. Because there is not enough attention on climate change.
it’s the only way they can get the news to engage with it
Why Stonehenge? What does Stonehenge have to do with climate change?
Maybe go sink some yachts or spray paint some Saudi oil dealers.
Not a fan. I totally understand the need for climate protests, we’re way too slow. And I also het that you’re not gonna get headlines with a small protest somewhere. But why not disrupt things that are actually polluting, instead of throwing soup or paint at works of art. You’ll also make enemies by blocking a major road or something, but at least it makes some sense.
At least someone is doing something. The governments are way to slow imho. Also, there is literally no harm done. So everybody hyperventilating in the comments should maybe calm down a little.
At least someone is doing something
Yeah, actively giving talking points to right wing climate policy opponents and alienating the people that support their cause. That sure is something.
Spraying paint is the better kind of protest to get people to talk about the issues. Much better than actually making themselves an enemy by blocking cars
Which is why people are still talking about their last stunt right?
Much better than actually making themselves an enemy by blocking cars
Is it? At least cars have something to do with climate change.
If you support the cause you would understand no harm was done, and media attention was generated, as planned. If you want to have a excuse for your inaction you bitch on the internet about it.
Negative reactions. I don’t know anyone who identifies with these movements and actions, on the contrary. As someone who’s trying to convince relatives to eat and act more sustainably, I feel it’s an uphill battle because they don’t want to side with these actions.
You’re not being an activist, just an asshole and not just to the people you want to be an asshole to
Most activist organizations tend to do things that perpetuate themselves instead of trying to deal with the problem they are claiming to solve. That includes terrorist organisations too.
Now that’s just BS, sorry. Not a single person who was on the fence of doing something against climate change will go “oh well but I didn’t like the method of those protesters, now I won’t do it”.
The people who are constantly looking for excuses to do literally nothing are lost to climate action anyway. Every meaningful progress will have to be won against those people, not with them. If even slight inconveniences are too much to ask from them sure, they will shout and cry how this protest is the reason, but let’s be honest: They were never going to be a part of the solution anyway.
It’s not BS it’s reality. Especially for older generations, but not only, the way other people perceive them and their beliefs is important. If by supporting vegetarianism, climate advocacy, et. al they will be perceived as supporting these types of actions they won’t do it. Is it stupid? Absolutely, but it’s reality and a demographic of people you won’t be getting for your cause and for climate we can’t afford to lose credibility and supporters.
With this lack of nuance and understanding is how the left loses voters to the far right, and how activists lose supporters they can’t afford to lose
The BS part is that they would have done anything helpful to the cause without the protest.
This is just another excuse. “People think I support throwing starch at Stonehenge” is not a reason to vote conservative and eat red meat at every meal.
We are trying to make people change the way they live and act, of course most of them will find any excuse to not do it. The “any attention is good” way of doing things is a far right tactic and shouldn’t be used. It gives them the perfect excuse to not align with the beliefs and just maintain their ways.
Right?
“I would have helped avoiding the apocalypse! But then some random guys sprayed paint on some things!”
There was definitly harm done … and I don’t mean to stonehenge.
No harm was done to the stonehenge. No harm was done to the cause to stop climatechange. These actions get people talking about climate change, that is the plan and it was a succes. There are many different types of action that can be taken. Some people write letters, other consume less, etc. In the end they all work towards the same goal. But they require action. If you are not interested in changing the world and yourself for the better, no one can convince you. But if you want to create change, you will and you can. And then you will do so no matter what other people may think or do.
They’re not doing anything except virtue signalling.
What did you do during the climate crisis, grandpa? Did you canvass politicians? Did you install solar panels? Did you vote for the green party? Did you blockade drilling sites? Did you run for Parliament?
No Jimmy I sprayed paint on some old rocks
May as well stay at home and stab yourself in the head with a fork until you black out.
What have you done against the climate crisis?
Well so far I’ve painted all the rocks in my garden neon yellow, so I’ve done about the same as those twats.
Oh, and also all the things I mentioned in my previous post (except run for Parliament), so there is that.
Doesn’t actually take that much fucking effort. I can’t guarantee that my actions will have definite results, but what I can say for sure is that at least I’m doing things that are actually targeted at fixing the problem and not just getting attention so that a bunch of useless wankers can feel self-righteous.
Certainly my solar panels will contribute something at least.
So, what have you done?
lmao keep complaining and sitting on your lazy ass
Fuck these people.
I’ve tried, they’re too busy tho…
They didn’t destroy anything, the paint can be removed without ruining the site, and they brought more visibility than sitting around with signs.
I don’t have a problem with this.
I’m not sure visibility is really what we need at this point. Is there anyone left on Earth that doesn’t know about it? I think what we need instead is political mobilization and coalition-building to increase our political clout and ultimately win elections and create legislation.
Yeah I think awareness where they ruin yachts and private planes is better than destroying common cultural heritage. Wtf
They probably know that if they put corn starch on Stonehenge they’ll be in jail for a few days and get community service, but if they put spray paint on a billionaire’s yacht, they’d get shot.
Well the top comment was “fuck these people” so if the goal was to build broad public support it is having the opposite effect.
Alternatively, EVERYONE is cheering for those fucking Orcas, so… Imagine being dumber than a whale.
Waiting for news where orcas attack mega yatch.
Please!
They are basically 5th columning environmental causes when they do shit like this.
Obligatory Astroturfing warning.
That will teach those neolithic druids to think about their long term impact on the planet!
Is cornstarch paint?
By that logic, could water be considered paint?
No. But it does make for a good shitty click bait title.
Oh no! The history that we could have all have enjoyed in the future (if we weren’t all about to die due to environmental collapse) has been slightly marred!
Good.
