Stop thinking that you vote “for” someone in a FPTP system. You don’t. You vote against the guy you don’t like.
It sucks, and I hate it, but don’t delude yourself into thinking otherwise. We’re playing a badly-designed game with a shitty controller and we’re only allowed to press a button once a year at best.
Think Twitch Plays Pokemon, but with a lot more trolls and no moderation. There will be a constant stream of people voting to do something stupid and destructive, so you spend all of your time voting against them.
Oh, and their votes count for more, so they can win even if there’s fewer of them. All we can ever hope to do is try to stop them and hope they don’t fuck everything up and give themselves even more power before the next time we’re allowed to pick a move.
Yay America. Greatest democracy in the world right there.
That’s an early-stage FPTP system. After a bunch of people with minority support start winning you end up with two options, and you vote against the one you hate least because there’s not really a choice anymore.
Both Democrats and Republicans have a vested interest in keeping the system as it is. They won’t change it unless citizens make them change it.
Honestly I’m kind of losing hope that it’s even possible at this point.
Positive change in the American system usually comes from the bottom up. If you’re interested in fixing the system, the first step is to switch your local elections to Approval Voting, probably through a referendum. There’s a whole bunch of reasons, and lots of second and third steps, but that’s the first one.
Whenever people come up with these solutions I’m reminded that it took Jon Stewart over a decade to get money for 9/11 first responders.
If it takes that long to do something so universally desired, it’s going to take a thousand years to change our voting system.
But it’s nice to dream.
If it takes that long to do something so universally desired, it’s going to take a thousand years to change our voting system.
Things never seem to change, until they do. And then you’re amazed they were ever the old way at all. As someone who remembers walking through an airport pre-9/11, in a state that put Ann Richards in the governor’s office, its funny to think about what was “normal” 30 years ago. Hell, its funny to think about what was normal 20 years ago, under Bush. Or 10 years ago, under Obama.
I’m old enough to remember when a black President was telling the country he could settle race tensions between a Harvard Professor and a city cop by having a beer with them.
Flying planes into buildings probably won’t help change our voting system.
Historically speaking, I have to disagree. One of the most transformative moments of our history since Pearl Harbor. It gave birth to wave after wave of right-wing election wins and a subsequent hard-right shift in voting rights, election policy, and court composition.
They won’t change it unless citizens make them change it.
They’ll send a fucking SWAT team to the house of any citizen tries to change it.
Honestly I’m kind of losing hope that it’s even possible at this point.
At some point, “we just need to vote for the most right-wing Democrat and then blame the leftists any time we lose” is not a productive long term strategy.
You vote against the guy you don’t like.
What if I don’t like any of them?
There will be a constant stream of people voting to do something stupid and destructive, so you spend all of your time voting against them.
I would simply not participate in a system that sounds this miserable and tedious. I would play a game that’s more productive and enjoyable.
Oh, and their votes count for more, so they can win even if there’s fewer of them.
But it doesn’t matter, because casting a vote for Ralph Nader from my bright red state of Texas is still the reason Al Gore lost Florida in a 5-4 SCOTUS decision.
What if I don’t like any of them?
Join the club.
I would play a game that’s more productive and enjoyable.
That’s not possible. We voted on what game we’re playing and we glued the cartridge into the console. Much to my disappointment we don’t get to change the game, or not play, or even ignore it.
It’s a stupid world and we all live in it.
But it doesn’t matter, because casting a vote for Ralph Nader from my bright red state of Texas is still the reason Al Gore lost Florida in a 5-4 SCOTUS decision.
Exactly: The system is built to let them win as much as possible. You’re not going to ever beat it. It’s like Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy except even more frustrating and without the pleasant voiceovers.
That’s not possible.
That’s very possible. It’s just not what Americans are used to doing.
We voted on what game we’re playing
That’s a naive perspective, as it misses the historical, financial, and sociological roots of the game. You can’t play a game of basketball if the other team picks up the ball and walks off the court.
This is Lockean Theory 101, and its the entire basis of democracy. We use democratic tools to divine popular intent. But when the democracy is subverted and political leadership is divorced from public sentiment, the institutions fail. But if institutions aren’t failing because people are too afraid to withdraw their support from them, the system is implicitly endorsed and corrupt officials get to continue abusing their social mandates.
It’s a stupid world and we all live in it.
Its only as stupid as we make it. Atm, we’ve got a country that’s invested an enormous amount of time, energy, and labor hours in infesting our senior population with brain worms. That needs to change and simply voting isn’t going to be the thing that does it.
The entire premise is BS because Biden has a list of accomplishments from infrastructure to debt forgiveness, progressive drug guidance, progress in gender/race equality, departments like the ftc and irs being competently run again with actual resources, to judge appointments. Hmm I wonder to who’s benefit it is to ignore all that and label him “not Trump”?
Care to offer an actual list? Every time someone tries to offer an actual list it turns out to be meaningless victory laps. With the possible exception of the NLRB Cemex decision. But that’s getting it’s stress test right now so it’s a bit early to celebrate.
Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_actions_by_Joe_Biden
All of it is pretty decently documented.
I mean usually people try to curate it to stuff with physical outcomes. Otherwise 90% of that list is performative crap like this one. And if you don’t think that was performative have a look at what red states are doing in schools.
Biden bragged about cutting social security, has no desire to reform healthcare, and doesn’t care about income inequality or labour rights. He looks at America’s race-to-the-bottom economy and he’s like “yeah. Everything is working just fine here”
Also, many of the things you listed here are basically just “not Trump/not Republicans” in their own way. You really think “appointed competent people to run government departments” is a positive and not just a non-negative point (as compared to what his opponents would do)?
Also, Biden is obviously fucking senile and I’m tired of people pretending he’s not just because they’re afraid it will give Trump power. It’s totally fine to vote for Biden because he was the lesser evil, but let’s not pretend he was ever a good option. When you ignore reality because it makes it harder to like your preferred candidate, you are doing the exact same thing the MAGA idiots do.
Before you accuse me of anything, you should know I’m Canadian and have absolutely no dog in this fight. This is my unbiased outsider perspective. I could give a shit who wins the next election in the US, but I’m tired of people lying to themselves about either of the candidates not being a steaming pile of shit.
It’s pretty rare for anyone to praise Biden on his own merits, especially on Lemmy. So maybe don’t get so irate because in comparison to trump, people praise him
And yes you have every dog in this fight, the US is kinda fuckin important for global stability
The US is currently the world’s dominant Imperialist power, if “global stability” means extracting vast amounts of wealth from the global south then perhaps your idea of “global stability” needs to be reevaluated.
This is the laziest shit ever. It’s very convenient to say that things are as simple as that but they obviously aren’t.
I didn’t say things were simple. I said the US is the largest Imperialist power in the world, which is true, and suggested reevaluating your world view.
The US is not holding onto hegemonic power for “stability,” nations can govern themselves just fine. The US is holding onto hegemonic power for profit.
No, it’s absolutely not simple, but it is glaringly obvious that pretending the US is important on the global stage for “stability” is purely a western viewpoint that ignores the US’ contributions as a supporter of terrorism around the world whenever its profits are threatened.
Tankie gon’ tank
What have I said makes me a tankie? Saying that the US is bad for the world, actually? That’s all forms of Leftism, whether they be Anarchist, Marxist, or so forth.
If you’re just going to resort to Ad Hominem instead of defending your claims or addressing my counters to them, why even reply?
You’re never going to get these people to acknowledge any of this stuff.
They’ll still be defending whatever Biden 2.0 clone is in office a few cycles from now because “He only sent half the number of people to the gas chamber compared to [Identical GOP Incumbent]!”
BoTh SiDeS
In terms of establishment conservative Democrats and Republicans? Yes, they represent the same path to fascism. So it’s not both sides, more like same side.
Progressives would be the only non-fascist side.
That is the thing, the GOP isn’t identical. It is pretty much worse every single time.
The technical distinction are becoming less and less compelling. The whole “Things will get better if you just vote for our chosen establishment democrat one more time.” starts to wear thin after decades of 0 substantial results and, more often than not, straight up complicity in the worst crimes of the far-right.
Establishment democrats support the corporate aristocracy and banks just the same, they barely fight for really basic stuff like civil rights and only enough so they have something to point to, not to actually fundamentally change anything in a way that the right can’t just reverse. That’s why we are where we are right now, the Conservative Democrats’ greed and lack of spine has allowed the far-right to capture the courts and undermine our institutions, unopposed over the course of 40-ish years.
The Democratic party is the only one with potential to change, but that’s never going to happen if they can just keep doing the pied piper shit and getting re-elected. For all intents and purposes they are identical.
Here’s the problem, people don’t vote down ticket, and they only vote every 4 years instead of every 2 years.
The president is more of a cheerleader than a person of substantial power. That’s not to say the office of the president isn’t individually powerful, but you need strong margins in the house and the senate to actually get stuff done.
We kind of had that for 2 years when Obama and we got the affordable care act… Even then the margins weren’t that great; I don’t think Obama was the problem so much as they couldn’t find the support to do something bigger in Congress.
Even with those thin margins Democrats come across the aisle regularly to actually get governance done (e.g. fund fixing infrastructure). They’re not even close, we’ve got one party that actually governs, and another that prints money for the rich, attacks people based on their bedroom preferences, and doesn’t give a shit about the environment.
Here’s the problem, people don’t vote down ticket, and they only vote every 4 years instead of every 2 years.
In no small part due to DNC suppression and interference. This is why people say the neoliberals need to be allowed to fail until they have no option but to tlstop suppression tactics (or leave and go to the GOP where they belong)
The base cannot reform the DNC they can only starve the power structure until it’s desperate enough to stop sniping progressives. It worked after Clinton’s failure, we got a ton of progressives in office after that.
You speak as if the democrats cooperating with republicans is a flaw on their part. They don’t exist in a vacuum — they have to deal with the American public. And when half this fucking country is voting for the disgusting shit the republicans are all about, the democrats aren’t going to stay in office if they always do the right thing. Politics sucks.
And just to clarify: I’m not saying they’re innocent. They do protect a lot of the same institutions that drive inequality, etc.
Also I don’t really hear "Things will get better if you just vote for our chosen establishment democrat one more time” much lately. It’s more like stopping the bleeding or putting down the gun against your head before you can start making improvements. Trumpism is just that bad.
You speak as if the democrats cooperating with republicans is a flaw on their part. They don’t exist in a vacuum — they have to deal with the American public.
The majority of Americans are for basically all progressive policies, particularly when asked directly about a policy rather than a party or politician.
The issue is not the American people (of who MAGA chuds are 30% at best) the issue is that Democrats and Republicans work in concert to rig the system and deny the people access to politicians who are actually willing to implement popular policy.
This corporate circle jerk game (fueled not inconsiderably by Citizens United) is why the fascist roght is able to keep pushing our institutions further t9 the right. Establushment Democrats and Republicans are so busy gorging on lobby payouts and shoving AIPAC money ip their asses that they literally put up no resustance except when it comes to changing the status quo. Which is when they turn and will snarl and bite at anyone who tries to interrupt them.
So no, it is not “dealing with the American people” it’s deliberately side stepping and suppressing them to loot our nation’s legacy.
cough supporting a genocide cough
Until then he was doing great yeah. Bit of a big one though.
And before you hit me with the usual I know Trump would be worse for Gaza but it doesn’t change what Biden has done
1 he always supported it, so if you say “until” you just didn’t care until it went hot, 2 I don’t think it changes it that his opponent supports it harder, but it does speak to your options.
So if you are against genocide, you don’t get a candidate that can represent you. And americans would rather drag their dick through miles of broken glass than to vote 3rd party.
I don’t need to torture my penis to know it would have a bad outcome to do so, kind of like giving my vote to trump with an extra step while pretending to be a martyr
Only voting for Trump is giving him your vote.
Except for the fact that we know how the system works and third party candidates have no chance
So should people who are not going to vote for a Trump or Biden actively cast their vote for Trump then? It’s the same thing, after all, right?
Is not casting a vote for Trump actually a vote for Biden?
He always supported Israel… I think the ‘until’ is in reference to Israel’s more recent and more blatant attack on Gaza - prior to that, Biden’s support for Israel wasn’t nearly as flagrant as it is now.
Like, no one would bat an eye if I told them I support my wife’s decisions, but if she started breaking into the local NICUs and stomping on people’s babies, my continued support for her decisions would be a tad sus. …especially if I regularly said “honey could you tone the baby-stomping down a bit?” as I handed her a new pair of baby-stomping boots.
I’m not a both-sides’er (unless I’m talking to a trumpanzee in an attempt to steer votes away from Agent Orange). My vote is going to Biden and I encourage anyone reading this to do the same, but our complicity in the genocide on Gaza is genuinely upsetting, partly because it’s complicity in a fucking genocide, and partly because this WILL cause voter disengagement and could hand that other dipshit the presidency on a silver platter.
Biden’s support for Israel wasn’t nearly as flagrant as it is now
You’re saying that about a guy who has been saying shit like “I am a zionist” every year while sucking Israel’s dick. LOL.
You’re just showing that you have 0 idea what you’re talking about and that your opinion is only based on your fantasies, reality does not seem to be of interest to you.
He was doing pretty bad up to that point, thus why his approval rating was dogshit. Gaza simply made him unelectable by those who might’ve been able to hold their nose to avoid Trump.
He certainly did give a ton of handouts to corporations with nice sounding names, yeah.
And he offered the GOP every fascist policy they want on border with literally no strings attached. Twice. What a great totally-different-from-republicans guy.
Really knows how to reach across the aisle and be bi-partisan by…-checks notes-…giving the GOP everything they want with no conditions.
Yeah, but sometimes that really is enough
not sure why everybody’s butt is hurting over this comic
Biden has ran on this platform his entire four years
if his wrinkled catholic ass and his prosecutor wanted to do a better campaign and presidency they could but as it stands him and her just look like outdated, police loving, religious, zealots standing in the way of progress just like republicans
both parties are actively saying “I am not that other guy.” and “We failed to get shit done because of that other guy and his guys”
also both parties say you are wasting your vote voting third party
at this point it is running like a cheesy ad with a company who says buy our product because the competitor’s offering sucks never bringing up actual pros and cons
I’d say, take the L, vote third party this election, and the next and so on
I’ve been doing this for decades.
I can do this all day
Politics in 2024, I have read quite a few relatable comics in my life but this takes the cake.
As always politicians taking everything from us. Even the cake
In a system where all the non-winning votes are lost in a step and not counted at the end, like the USA form of weak democracy, this becomes a valid tactic.
It’s not only the presidential vote that’s like this, but ALL fucking votes. It’s astonishing how weak the US system is.
And still some see the US constitution as this pinnacle of democracy when it’s vastly outdated by now
Even the founding fathers anticipated a lot of reforms and for the whole thing to become obsolete quite soon but yet here we are with people worshipping them as this infallible being and weighting their words on a scale as if it’s impossible for them to be wrong
Eh, the founders more or less ensured that a wealthy land-owning aristocracy would be able to overrule the will of the people if need be. That’s more or less what the SCOTUS is there for, to ensure things don’t get too democratic.
The US was an early modern democracy, but has never been a particularly good one.
I’m hearing this a lot lately too. Not from the Biden campaign, mind you. Just as a straw man in memes and comments in spaces like this.
I bet you’re the kind of person who actually believes Biden has a “ReD LiNe”
Pretty fucking relevant in this thread it seems.
“Everyone who disagrees with me is a secret agent”
No, not everyone that disagrees with me is a secret agent. A good chunk of them are. The rest are the idiots that believe and agree with them.
I’m still waiting for a good argument about how no voting or voting 3rd party gets better outcomes.
Maybe I’m the idiot for thinking there might be a good argument for it. Who knows?
The rest are the idiots that believe and agree with them.
Like any good conspiracy, it accounts for any possible contrary evidence one might encounter. If you find someone you disagree with irl, or someone online who doesn’t seems like a secret agent, then it’s simple - they’re just people who have been manipulated by secret agents! The secret agents are still surrounding you and influencing every aspect of your life, regardless of silly things like “evidence” or “falsifiability.” It’s completely indistinguishable from a schizophrenic convinced they’re surrounded by lizard people.
I’m still waiting for a good argument about how no voting or voting 3rd party gets better outcomes.
It’s pretty simple. In a negotiation, having a credible threat of not cooperating gives you more bargaining power than if you show up like, “I will accept any deal you give me, I need this!” Voting is a negotiation. If politicians know that you’ll vote for them no matter what you do, then they have no reason to listen to your concerns, whereas if you say, “I’ll only vote for you if you do this, otherwise I’ll vote third party” then they have an incentive to do the thing in order to earn your vote.
Voting is a negotiation? Since when? Voting is a privilege that the ruling class can take away from us at any time if they think they can get away with it. Something kind of like what Trump did after the last election. I remember Jan 6th.
It’s always been a choice between a shit cupcake and a poop cookie. The best thing you can do is minimize damages so you can keep trying to organize for 4 more years or at the very least, stay out of the camps.
Also, if you don’t vote or vote 3rd party, they don’t have to think or care about you anymore. Your not a vote they need to get, because your throwing your vote away. Its basic first past the post voting strategy. I don’t like first past the post for this reason.
If you are bot, “foreign spy”, or whatever, your post was good at muddying the water, keep it up, your master will be pleased. If your not, this argument was bad and unconvincing try again. Not even conservative voters are dumb enough to vote 3rd party.
Also, if you don’t vote or vote 3rd party, they don’t have to think or care about you anymore. Your not a vote they need to get, because your throwing your vote away.
And if you always vote for them no matter what they do, then they don’t have to think or care about you anymore, because they know you’ll vote for them regardless.
If you are bot, “foreign spy”, or whatever, your post was good at muddying the water, keep it up, your master will be pleased.
Oh thank you, I actually am a foreign spy. Do you think you could rate me 5 stars? I really need this job.
Ugh it’s really tiresome to keep coming up with bits to make fun of this conspiracy theory. Can’t y’all get into like flat earth stuff instead, so I can have some new material to work with? It’s all the same crap.
And if you always vote for them no matter what they do, then they don’t have to think or care about you anymore, because they know you’ll vote for them regardless.
You got it! That is the shit system in the US.
Oh thank you, I actually am a foreign spy. Do you think you could rate me 5 stars? I really need this job.
Lol, good sense of humor.
I sympathize, it gets depressing. That is why, I don’t blame anyone from no voting or 3rd party voting. I just wish people would do that without justifying it. Not make it out to be this big brained strategy. There are a lot of good meaning ignorant people who will read that stuff and think they are materially improving things by no voting or 3rd party voting. The progressive fight is super hard and a pain in the butt. If you need a rest King/Queen, take it.
The only real way to get change to happen is getting enough people educated and organized to turn the democrat or republican candidate into a 3rd party candidate by numbers, that is the only way they suffer. Until then we have to play their stupid game.
The only real way to get change to happen is getting enough people educated and organized to turn the democrat or republican candidate into a 3rd party candidate by numbers, that is the only way they suffer.
And how exactly do you envision that happening without anyone ever making the case for it or trying to justify that position?
If he’s the guy running against Trump and Biden, I’ll vote for him. But he better tell us what his name is.
Why can’t you tell us?
You’re saying you’ll support a fucking mysterious stranger shows how serious you are about creating a positive change.
“Vote for my genocide supporting candidate or you’re not serious about change!”
“Well, that’s not a very enticing platform! Who is your opponent?”
“Donald Trump.”
“You have my vote.”
