Wbat’s saddest of all is that the US is a one-party state in all the worst ways and a democracy in many of the wrong ways.
Literally communism.
This thing they call “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” has as much in common with Marx and Engels’ idea of Communism as a Big Mac has with a plate of hummus.
Wrong.
Is China State Capitalist?
- The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2 The largest bank, construction, electricity, and energy companies in the world, are CPC controlled entities, subject to the 5 year plans laid out by the central committee.
- Workplace democracy in action in the CPC.
- Is modern day china communist? Is it staying true to communist values?
- Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
- Is the CPC committed to communism?
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The myth of Chinese state capitalism. Did Deng really betray Chinese socialism?
- Tsinghua University- Is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics real socialism, or is it state Capitalism?
- Isn’t China revisionist for having a capitalist sector of the economy, and working with capitalists? Why isn’t it fully planned like the USSR was?
- Castro on why both China and Vietnam are socialist countries.
- Roderic Day - China has billionaires.
- What is socialism with Chinese characteristics (SWCC)?
- How is SWCC not revisionist? How is it any different from Gorbachev’s market reforms?, 2
- Domenico Losurdo - is China state capitalist?, 2
Holy shit that’s a lotta cope.
The white mans burden lies heavy on the redditors.
The workers dont own the means of production. Its not communism
And when was a requirement for communism?
A stateless, classless, moneyless society. How can a class own something then?
Absolute nonsense.
Communism is from each according to their ability, to each according to their want.
And it’s a centuries long process.
Communism is from each according to their ability, to each according to their want.
I thought it was “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need”?
Wants and needs are often conflated but the outcomes of each phase would likely look incredibly different.
Neither are correct. Your phrase is correct, but that specifically refers to post-scarcity, Upper-Stage Communism, not Communism itself. Communism is essentially a global, fully socialized republic devoid of private property, after classes have been abolished and Capital finally fully wrested and incorporated into the public sector.
The “needs” of Upper-Stage Communism are also wants. It largely doesn’t matter, Marx wasn’t a Utopian, he didn’t advocate for Socialism out of any moral reason, but by analyzing where Capitalism was developing.
Workers own the means of production through the state, it’s on its way to communism in a step later described as socialism after Marx and Engels deaths.
Not even after their deaths, Marx already acknowledged dictatorship of the proletariat as the practical way after first proletarian revolution, Paris Commune experiences.
Not communist obviously, since there’s still very much a state and class division. But socialist because the state primarily serves the workers, with the stated goal of striving towards communism.
Now whether it’ll stay that way or not, we’ll see. Deng’s reforms have given liberals too much power after all; there seems to be an active class war happening in the Chinese state.
Not communist obviously
I find it’s useful to select more descriptive terms than use the literal dozens of varying definitions of ‘socialism’ and ‘communism’. The terms by themselves can be so vague that I can truthfully state this - “communism is the goal of communism!” A communist society, for example, is different from a communist party or a communist state (aka. Marxist–Leninist state), which are only parts of the communist movement and the communist school of thought. Obviously no-one looks at the PRC and sees a stateless, classless society, but that’s an understandable (albeit condescending) interpretation of when people say “China is communist”.
(Pinging @xnx@slrpnk.net as I’m also replying to their comment)
Wrong, and it’s clear you read none of the links above. Especially this one: https://archive.ph/DwD1n
Nobody said they achieved Communism, just that they are authentically working towards it through Socialism.
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is Marxism-Leninism applied to the PRC’s present productive forces and material conditions. They have not reached Communism, but they are firmly on their way to full socialization of the economy. The only way you could think they have abandoned Communism as a goal is if you have never read Marx, Engels, or Lenin, and therefore have never studied Historical Materialism.
The reason it’s painfully obvious that you haven’t studied Historical Materialism is because you clearly believe Communism is something that develops through decree, not degree, that the goal of Communism is to immediately socialize all production. This is absurd, and Utopian. Marx believed Socialism to come after Capitalism because Capitalism turns itself into a status ripe for socialism as markets coalesce into few monopolist syndicates, ripe for central planning. If the productive forces aren’t ready, then Communism can’t be achieved without struggles.
In Question 17 of The Principles of Communism, Engels makes this clear:
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
What happened in China, is that Mao tried to jump to Communism before the productive forces had naturally socialized themselves, which led to unstable growth and recessions. Deng stepped in and created a Socialist Market Economy by luring in foreign Capital, which both smoothed economic growth and eliminated recessions. This was not an abandonment of Communism, but a return to Marxism from Ultraleft Maoism.
Today, China has over 50% of the economy in the public sector. About a 10th of the economy is in the cooperative sector, and the rest is private. The majority of the economy is centrally planned and publicly owned! Do you call the US Socialist because of the Post Office? Absurd.
Moreover, the private sector is centrally planned in a birdcage model, Capital runs by the CPC’s rules. As the markets give way to said monopolist syndicates, the CPC increases control and ownership, folding them into the public sector. This is how Marx envisioned Communism to be established in the first place! Via a DotP, and by degree, not decree! The role of the DotP is to wrest Capital as it socializes and centrally plan it, not to establish Communism through fiat.
Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism, and read Marx himself before you act like an authority without even understanding Historical Materialism.
I didnt say they werent working towards it tho. i said they arent communist and i listed obvious examples they are not distributing power and money equally nor horizontally
They are led by Communists that are working towards Communism along Marxist lines. What do you mean when you say they aren’t Communist? That they haven’t achieved upper-stage Communism?
Not the commenter but tbh some see it as a continuation of Lenin’s ideology which broke away from Marxist lines
They literally don’t have free healthcare or schools. I have a very close friend from China. It’s a very capitalistic and conservative society from what I hear. Monopolies and conglomerates are rife.
This is completely false. If you’re uninsured, a visit is less than ~5 USD per doctors visit, and about ~20 USD for a specialist visit.. If you’re insured, as 95% of the population in China is, then visits are free. It also has a very low cost per capita, since public health is socialized, not privatized.
Primary school is completely free, and college has tuition fees just like any other country.
Got any more of “I heard it from a friend?”, that people can upvote to affirm their racist biases?
Lord of Lemmy, what makes you think I am racist?
My favorite trope has to be western leftists confidently talking nonsense about China.
Western ultra-leftists, man, an infantile disorder. They fear the scroll.
sure man, the world’s largest Marxist party, led by a man with a doctorate in Marxist studies, has abandoned Marxism. That’s SO true boss.
This is like saying that Iran is following the exact system envisioned by Mohammad because Khamenei is a scholar or whatever.
No you don’t get it, 99 million members of the Communist Party of China don’t actually understand Marxism. A guy who’s lived his whole life under the dictatorship of capital is the only true arbiter of what real Marxism looks like.
Most party members are in it for the money and power lol
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China’s private sector are de facto government companies
[Citation needed]
China understander has logged on lol
errrrmm, actually all 1.4 billion citizens of the PRC are brainwashed and can’t think for themselves. ever think about that, you dumb commie???
Edit: western dengists, man.
Western maoists, every time… smh my head
It’s funny when the western supremacists themselves try to claim that supporting communist countries is a uniquely western phenomenon. The CPC has over 90 million members, every socialist country like Cuba and nearly every communist party on the planet supports and looks up to the CPC as a model for the 21st century. Even most non-communist global south countries look up to it.
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is Marxism-Leninism applied to the PRC’s present productive forces and material conditions. They have not reached Communism, but they are firmly on their way to full socialization of the economy. The only way you could think they have abandoned Communism as a goal is if you have never read Marx, Engels, or Lenin, and therefore have never studied Historical Materialism.
The reason it’s painfully obvious that you haven’t studied Historical Materialism is because you clearly believe Communism is something that develops through decree, not degree, that the goal of Communism is to immediately socialize all production. This is absurd, and Utopian. Marx believed Socialism to come after Capitalism because Capitalism turns itself into a status ripe for socialism as markets coalesce into few monopolist syndicates, ripe for central planning. If the productive forces aren’t ready, then Communism can’t be achieved without struggles.
In Question 17 of The Principles of Communism, Engels makes this clear:
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
What happened in China, is that Mao tried to jump to Communism before the productive forces had naturally socialized themselves, which led to unstable growth and recessions. Deng stepped in and created a Socialist Market Economy by luring in foreign Capital, which both smoothed economic growth and eliminated recessions. This was not an abandonment of Communism, but a return to Marxism from Ultraleft Maoism.
Today, China has over 50% of the economy in the public sector. About a 10th of the economy is in the cooperative sector, and the rest is private. The majority of the economy is centrally planned and publicly owned! Do you call the US Socialist because of the Post Office? Absurd.
Moreover, the private sector is centrally planned in a birdcage model, Capital runs by the CPC’s rules. As the markets give way to said monopolist syndicates, the CPC increases control and ownership, folding them into the public sector. This is how Marx envisioned Communism to be established in the first place! Via a DotP, and by degree, not decree! The role of the DotP is to wrest Capital as it socializes and centrally plan it, not to establish Communism through fiat.
Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism, and read Marx himself before you act like an authority without even understanding Historical Materialism.
Marx believed Socialism to come after Capitalism because Capitalism turns itself into a status ripe for socialism as markets coalesce into few monopolist syndicates, ripe for central planning.
I’m sure I’m way out of my depth here, and it’s been over a decade since I studied this stuff in school… But this seems incredibly naive? As we’re seeing now, that environment is far more ripe for fascism, or some type of neo-feudalism.
I’m dramatically simplifying things for the sake of a Lemmy comment.
First, fascism is just Capitalism in decline, it isn’t meaningfully separate from Capitalism itself.
When I say that Marx believed Socialism to come after Capitalism because of Capitalism’s mechanisms working towards monopolist syndicates ripe for planning, that doesn’t mean Marx wasn’t also revolutionary. Such central planning and socialism can’t take place without revolution, because the proletariat needs to gain supremacy over Capital, which is impossible electorally.
Does that clear it up?
The starting point for the Marxian analysis centers on the existing dominant forces of monopolistic industrial capitalism. Therefore socialist revolution still must move through capitalism by process of subordinating the ruling class to a proletarian state. As Cowbee pointed out, fascism is not a state absent capitalism, but rather mode of capitalism itself. Because of the inherent contradictions, we assume that any capitalist system already produces various quantities of fascism as a mechanism for maintaining superiority of the owner class.
I upvoted both of you because building necessary infrastructure at a loss because the people need it sounds an awful lot like communism and we all know what Sino means
They don’t need it though, China already had a very robust traditional passenger rail network which is the primary reason many of these high speed lines are hemorrhaging money: people aren’t willing to pay the increased cost for a high speed ticket
Hemorrhaging money 😂 These high speed lines are owned by the state, which has infinite money. It can charge as much or as little as it pleases.
Infinite money? Is that why the factory workers are all paid great salaries and have the best working conditions?
Do you think you’re being clever?
Do you think you’re proving they have infinite money or great working conditions?
While this is true it is not because China has deviated from socialist theory, including that of Marx and Enfels. China is a dictatorship of the proletariat as described by Marx and Engels as the necessary precursor to communism. It is also taking a very specific strategy towards imperialism that involves special economic zones, or capitalism zones, in order to build productive forces while also coupling the well-being of imperialist countries to China’s ability to produce.
Communism will never be achieved by a state and no state has ever expected to do so. The idea that any country ever could use a category error, it means a person doesn’t understand the term at all as used by Marx a d Engels. It is, by definition, stateless, and could only happen after all states are eventually abolished. But again, being practical people, they expected this to happen through a long process of struggle with dictatorships of the proletariat being what socialists first formed and could use to overturn the capitalist order
Have the new rail lines reduced automobile traffic? Or are they adding lines in anticipation of future traffic?
The PRC doesn’t have an already-built-up car-focused infrastructure like the US does for example, so they get to do it right from scratch. It becomes very difficult to get rid of that once it’s built, so its best to do it right from the start.
They’re trying to account for current and future needs for city-to-city travel.
They also have and still invest in decarbonizing with electric vehicles with battery swaps as well
Pure speculation on my part: The average Chinese citizen now has a higher standard of living, so the need for mobility increases. So you’ll have both more car owners and the need for railways, which do help reduce the need for cars, but also don’t fully overlap in use cases. You aren’t just going from people swapping their car for railways, but also giving many people that had no car to start with the option to choose between getting one or using trains for their travels. Which is good, but in absolute numbers you’d still see more cars.
Similar to how China is adding both a massive amount of renewable energy and at the same time still building coal power plants, simply because the overall need for energy is still growing.
70% of Chinese Millennials are homeowners
@Alsephina @Juice Isn’t their bigger problem having too many unfinished apartments? Many more than are needed.
(And are those rates including those who own apartments that will never be completed?)
It’s true there’s a lot of unfinished apartments, and imo it’s true that’s a big problem (or a symptom of a larger issue). But I don’t think it’s unfinished apartments are a bigger problem than lack of home ownership in the West
@OsrsNeedsF2P I meant a bigger problem in China
Nobody can buy land in china, it is only leased from the government for up to 70 years for residential usage (less for other purposes). Calling the tofu-dreg building on top of this “owning a home” is disingenuous at best and deceitful at worst. Why do people buy homes anyway instead of renting? Because all other options to invest are even worse and it is literally their only option.
I hope you don’t tolerate how mega corps “sell” you shit like digital media or IoT devices only to later change the terms of sale and steal it back from you, because you never really owned it. Don’t tolerate the same shit if a government does it to you.
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Let’s not pertend that this is because China has socialized housing. They used to do decades ago, but abolished for a long time.
In fact, China has one of the highest home price to income ratio (ratio of median apartment prices to median familial disposable income, expressed as years of income) in the world: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/rankings_by_country.jsp . Chinese people will need 30 years of disposible income to purchase an apartment; compare to 3 in the U.S., 7 in neterland, 11 in France, and 9 in U.K.
The high home ownership rate is likely due to 1. false report, 2. saving culture. In China parents typically have a good amount of saving to provide child a home upon their marriage etc. even though apartments in Beijing can easily cost double than a major U.S. city, and people in Beijing probably earn half as much.
Also a housing bubble and real estate being one of the few investment vehicles available to regular chinese.
Chinese people will need 30 years of disposible income to purchase an apartment; compare to 3 in the U.S.
Who can afford a condo with 3 years disposable income in the US? My spouse and I make above average money in a below average cost city and we couldn’t afford a condo here.
I think the definition of “disposable income” likely means the wage that reaches your bank account, i.e. wage - 401k, insurance etc.
In major city, this ratio is likely higher, but certainly no where near 30, but this data includes all of U.S. including rural areas with crazy cheap housing.
In fact, it is quite easy to get more “realistic” statistics just by looking up the median wage and housing price in Boston, New York, Seattle, LA etc. v.s. Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen etc.
If you are so eager to defend an authoritarian government, I believe it is better to present statistics with source, instead of just resort to your experience.
likely means the wage that reaches your bank account, i.e. wage - 401k, insurance etc
Well ain’t that a shit definition then
What statistics will you use? use wage - CPI? No matter what you use, I listed the Beijing median income, and beijing housing price. Unless you think making $10 per hour can somehow buy a 700k apartment, grabbing on the precise definition of one statistics doesn’t seem helpful to this discussion.
And you cannot deny the situation in the U.S. is not better than needing to buy 700k apartment with $10 wages.
Honestly, I am quite surprised how low tankies are willing to go to defend China. As a Chinese, it is very disheartening to me that people have never experienced or seen the suffering of living under an authoritarian government, are more willing to blindly defend it, than having a intellectual discussion.
Honestly, I am quite surprised how low tankies are willing to go to defend China. As a Chinese, it is very disheartening to me that people have never experienced or seen the suffering of living under an authoritarian government, are more willing to blindly defend it
There are literally some “tankies” on hexbear that are in China and posting from China right now. @Flyberius@hexbear.net. There are some users here who are Chinese and grew up there (not sure if they’d want to be tagged though). There are journalists who decided to go live there in part because of how much more freedom they are afforded there, people like Ben Norton, who you would probably also label a “tankie.” All of whom can attest to how baseless and sinophobic all the fabricated “suffering of living under an authoritarian government” stories really are. We aren’t all just clueless westerners, but your assumption that we are is also telling.
There are certainly different people with different preferences, and most Chinese people are indeed fine with CCP. A dictatorship has an obvious need to maintain many nationalist, so it is not surprising that you can find Chinese who loves CCP.
Many people are more than willing to turn a blind eye on all the artists, journalist, and lawyer, who were arrested, since it has nothing to do when them. This is a emotional topics for me, because one of my highschool classmate has been seperated from her father, for he was advocating more transparent laws and enforcement.
There are plenty of Chinese mastodon instance, like https://douchi.space/explore, https://mstdn.moe/about, https://m.cmx.im/explore. Go there talk to them and see what they think.
Of course, you don’t need to believe me, or people on mastodon, or journalist from all “mainstream media”; and just trust people on hexbear. But that will likely be no different from people who only believe fox news and infowars.
I’m eating breakfast in Chengdu. I’m so oppressed right now.
Honestly, I am quite surprised how low tankies are willing to go to defend China. As a Chinese, it is very disheartening to me that people have never experienced or seen the suffering of living under an authoritarian government, are more willing to blindly defend it, than having a intellectual discussion.
Compare the prison population of the US to China’s lol.
It is hard to imagine that an adult talks like this. People points out most Chinese own homes, as if it is some policies that the west can learn from. I pointed out the stats that proved it is more about culture than China’s housing market.
Yet you are here just side stepping every way, accusing unrelated stuff, just to defend the CCP. I used to think tankies are just misinformed, but you have proved that you are simply vile and unwilling to accept.
It is totally okay with me that there are evil people that are unwilling to accept adult discussions; I just feel dishearten about other people misled by your propaganda, simply because they, in their good nature, decides to trust your posts and comments.
There is no point in continuing this discussion, since you clearly are not in good faith. See you in my block list. Bye.
How big is this area compared to the US? Would be cool to see the areas superimposed
The True Size Of is pretty useful for this
Here you go. Looks like it’d be about the eastern third to one half of the country getting high speed rail in just 10 years. That’s amazing.
That is pretty nuts
Thats so awesome!
to be fair the US is a relatively small economy that doesn’t have resources to pull this off once you subtract the money needed to topple elected governments and bomb brown kids overseas, while militarizing the police to crack down on the melanin epidemic in house.
And realistically, there are no good reasons America couldn’t have a decent high speed rail system across the eastern seaboard and maybe the western seaboard with a couple connecting links between them where the population supports it.
The US can’t even build high speed rail from LA to San Francisco, and they’re no closer to even starting it than they were when they started talking about it 20 years ago. It’s cooked.
Seeing my country of residence change for the better during my lifetime is a completely alien concept to me.
I thought that flag was an emoji kek.
Only on Hexbear.
Banger thread on the other side of the defederation barrier.
As someone who loves trains I find this truly impressive and I wish my country cared half as much about trains as China does
China’s population density in its eastern half is an order of magnitude higher than pretty much every country, which really changes the transportation calculation. It’d be impossible for them to build enough roads to effectively transport their population around the country
you could force everyone to drive. itd be terrible, but that hasnt stopped cities like LA (a more population dense city) from doing what theyre doing.
LA is the second biggest city in the US and it’d be like 15th biggest in China. Los Angeles is also the 308th most dense city in the continental US, and not even on the radar internationally for density
You don’t even need that many people before cars become impractical.
You don’t need many to become impractical. But you need China levels for it to become geometrically impossible.
This is 6 years ago. Is there a more recent map?
Yes
May we see it?
No
:(
For a more detailed view at all rail infrastructure the transport layer on osm is nice: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/29.845/113.676&layers=T
All the dark black lines should be train lines. This shows all types tho, not just the high speed ones. But honestly for general commercial and social prosperity, the regional lines are probably more important than the high speed long distance ones. If you go over to Europe while using this layer, it will get very dense.
Edit: this ones is a bit more nuanced http://cnrail.geogv.org/enus/about
Im a fan of high speed rail as much as anyone but a lot of this network has been built with massive debts and for a lot lines, no immediate commercial viability. Not a million miles away from Victorian railway companies in London building lines for, hoped for, future demand. I hope it works out, but there is for sure a risk of it becoming a millstone.
built with massive debts for a lot lines, no immediate commercial viability.
The Chinese state owns the whole system, and state debt isn’t what you think it is. This is not a commercial system, so “commercial viability” is irrelevant.
@davel @elgordino True. However, many stations are ghost stations, that only got built because a provincial official got their hands on the money from Beijing. Also much of critical construction is already in a bad and unsafe state, only shortly after opening. This means that on many stretches top speeds cannot be maintained or they can’t even be used at all. Much construction is of “tofu dreg” quality and is crumbling already.
“Ghost stations” are bullshit[1][2], and “tofu dreg quality” is bullshit running on the fumes of 1980s Chinese manufacturing (and is racist). Where do our iPhones and other smart phones and our laptops come from? What country’s lunar lander just returned from far side of the moon? People need to get their heads out of their asses.
@davel LOL
@davel @elgordino the viability is: how do we let people move around the country, what is the cheapest way.
This is cheap.
It’s also cheap everywhere else.
And by cheap I mean cheaper than alternatives.
It’s cheaper than just one more lane, bro. one more lane will fix it, bro, i swear.
It’s also cheaper than flying, in terms of climate change.
@davel Air travel is also demanding on:
* Road infrastructure for the airport, trains deliver people closer to where they want in the first place and the connect better to the rest of the PT system.
* Land use. Airports are huge.
* Airports also cost a lot, factoring them into the price of moving people around is important, frequently this is paid for the state.
* Noisy in ways that just can’t be mitigated.It really isn’t a good option.
@davel comedy mode: one more track, you wont believe how many more people can use just one more track ;)
Why does public infrastructure need to be commercially viable? There’s plenty of good reasons for people to need to travel aside from engaging in commerce.
The justification should go the other way round; infrastructure is for public use, and commercial entities ought to be taxed extra for utilizing public resources.
They always forget in their arguments too, that being able to move people around is better economically for the whole country rather than businesses or the state trying to profit off people buying train tickets.
Is the US interstate highway system commercially viable? It seems to lose money constantly.
Thats one of the best and safest investment any country could make. Rail will not become useless anytime soon. I would be more concerned about construction working conditions.
has been built with massive debts
While they have been financed it has not resulted in substantial long term debts.
no immediate commercial viability
Lmao. This is public infrastructure not a business grift.
When the private sector is in charge of things like this they do it worse and at higher expense btw.
Not a million miles away from Victorian railway companies in London building lines for, hoped for, future demand.
Very different, actually.
I hope it works out, but there is for sure a risk of it becoming a millstone.
I’m sure the Redditor that thinks public infrastructure needs commercial viability has plenty of useful lectures for the Chinese state on how to drive production and transportation.
Making a profit off of public services is not one of the PRC’s goals.
Fuck the CCP
Cries in HS2
That doesn’t seem to be stopping them from buying cars on mass. Just saying.
China has 0.17 private vehicles per capita compared to the US 0.81 cars per person. So basically I’m calling your comment BS.
when you have 1.5 billion people vs 330 million you’re bound to have some cars. better to look at cars per capita to get an idea of how many people are actually driving
OK, the CCP built a high-speed rail network with plenty of shortcuts causing multiple accidents on their shit system. No thanks. If a country wants to build a high-speed rail network, which the USA should fucking do, buy it from the Japanese, French or Germans.
Careful if you buy it from us in France, make sure you don’t buy trains that are too large to fit in the train stations
You don’t buy anything but baked goods from the French
They still are saddled with profit motives for some of their lines and the “if they build it they will come” strategy isn’t working out too great for them
