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Just waiting for the day when someone can explain to me what makes a man a man without describing skills, qualities, and actions that anyone can do regardless of gender.
And don’t tell me it’s “have a penis”, because if that were true then effeminate men wouldn’t be insulted all the time for not being “real” men, and there wouldn’t be toxic masculinity.
I’m a man because I say I’m a man and fuck anyone who tells me otherwise.
And that applies to anyone with any gender. Because it’s not about anyone but that person.
Otherwise
Now fuck me please
I never said I would be doing the fucking.
Same question for women. Gender is only useful insofar as we decide it is. We have an inherent nature to categorize and differentiate, and in some cases that makes a lot of sense, but outside of strictly biological facts, that distinction between genders is nebulous at best.
Like religion, gender identity is personal, even if it stems from society. No two people will share the same opinion, it’d probably be weird if they did, and as long as they’re not using their opinion as basis for fact, do whatever you want, man woman or anyone in between, outside, or around the spectrum.
A man is someone who identifies as a man.
Yes, it’s circular.
Gender is a social construct that is, gladly, starting to fail.
I hope that in some years people would stop refering to having any gender, and they’ll just have the social behavior they’d like best when they like it best. And will only discuss their sex when it’s medically relevant.
Sadly unlikely because it’s rooted in biological differences (mainly hormones), so on average there will be sex-based differences. I’d love it if people stopped stereotyping because of that but I doubt itll ever happen. Maybe we can at least get rid of the idea of gendered hobbies and such, but even then most people want to identify as part of a group so there will likely always be some association.
It’s less that the social construct is failing, and more that we’re finally letting it flourish.
Tying the way you present to the world to one of two options often linked to your gonads is extremely limiting. What you describe isn’t the failure of gender, it’s an explosion of genders.
A featherless biped or a miserable little pile of secrets, take your pick.
Idk, but i feel like it’s just being who you are and respecting yourself.
Same as a woman being a woman.
Anyone that’s confident in who they are isn’t going to care or announce it.All the blustering either way is just yelling “im a grown ass man/woman!” outside of a grocery store at 1 am.
Strong people build others up. Weak people knock them down to feel big. You want to feel like a strong man? Protect others and be generous with your spirit.
You want to feel like a strong man? Protect others and be generous with your spirit.
Fucking this. Strong men—strong people—help others. Healthy or not, realistic or not, this is the message that’s been sold to us since time immemorial. The knight that slays the dragon and saves the kingdom. The alien that crash lands and moonlights as a superhero. The sled dog runs 261 miles to bring the medicine to a town beset by an epidemic.
Yes, sure, one can argue some romanticism (or propaganda) with any given example. But the overall message of heroism, of strength, is not one of selfishness or of “me and mine”.
Heroism is something we ought to focus more on as a culture in general. Doing things simply because they are right and protecting others who cannot protect themselves cannot be understated.
I think a challenge with “right” is that it is subjective. For example, there are people today who believe that doing what’s “right” entails doing things that hurt people, or deprive them of happiness, or even a future. Or, that doing what’s “right” means only helping your family or your friends or your church or your Elks club.
I would say heroism has plenty of cultural emphasis already, perhaps too much even. The prevalence of superhero movies, calling anyone who served in the military a hero, all of the nurses/caregivers/essential workers during covid: there are so many examples of loud proclamations of heroism in US/Anglo culture. It is clearly a value held by the vast majority of people.
I think instead we should be looking at the messages people are actually getting from all the hero worship, rather than what we think are the important take-aways. Things like exceptionalism, having strength to prevail against one’s enemies, making hard decisions for “the greater good”. Finding good stories to combat these potentially damaging and counterproductive ideas is where we should be focusing our cultural energies IMO, rather than more hero worship.
Semi-related, as this reminded me of a quote from Cary Grant:
I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be and I finally became that person. Or he became me.
This was then repurposed on Star Trek Strange New Worlds by chief engineer Pelia (from a species that lives several centuries):
Most heroes I’ve seen… are just pretending half the time. There’s this one guy I remember, he said to me, ‘I always pretended to be someone I wanted to be, until finally, I became that someone, or he became me.’
Hah, didn’t catch that when I saw the episode - Pelia knew Cary Grant!
How to really feel like a man
- Ignore gender wars bait, there are way more important things out there.
- See step 1
Yeah, first time hearing “a man wants to feel like a man”
My first interpretation was a bunch of guys fighting with sticks and everyone having a blast
Are you male? The phrase is primarily said to women which might be why you’re unfamiliar with it if so.
Sometimes you find a really great stick. I’ve got one on my porch right now.
There are fun casual LARP or Nerf groups all over the place. Most of them would love to have more people coming out to the park on the weekend. Bring friends, or make some while you’re there!
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You just fell on the first hurdle
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You:
I’ve always thought the least manly quality you can have is caring about how manly you are.
From somebody named “geekandmisandry”.
That just shows you how impartial they are to the whole thing
Yeah because no one ever picks an online username that doesn’t perfectly represent their irl personality 1:1
You have no idea how this person behaves offline, you’re just reacting to their username
I thought that it was amusing. I have no idea why somebody would want that in their username.
A patient I dealt with had schizophrenia and dementia, “but I’m a man, not a little girl with panties” was his counterargument to everything.
You can only have one cigarette at a time because otherwise you lose them all and run out. “But I’m a man.”
You know the doctor says your food needs to be cut up. “Do I look like a little girl to you?”
That’s the communal cheese bowl, this is your plate. You can’t eat from the communal cheese bowl with a fork. “Do you see me wearing panties?”
Whenever I hear people making these kind of gender essentialist arguments, they just sound pitiably out of touch with reality to me.
Have you asked him how often he thinks about wearing women’s underwear?
That’s potentially worthwhile with someone who is cognizant but just an asshole. For someone with dementia, there’s no point
I don’t know what it says about you if you do it deliberately but I think there’s a lot to say for asking the question anyways because his speech filters don’t work properly and he might not be able to censor himself.
In my head I made many cutting remarks. But the reality of this level of cognitive decline is like 90% miserably depressing and only like 10% infuriating. Plus he wouldn’t be capable of understanding the criticism anyway.
Just change King to also say man.
So a trans person saying that he is a man, is not a real man? Or more adapted to context, a trans person saying that he wants to feel like a man, is not a real man? and doesn’t deserve to feel like a man?
I don’t agree with that at all. Weird thing to upvote tbh.
Edit: Today I learned, when I advocate for trans rights, I get up votes. When I apply the same support to cis men, I get down voted.
I thought this is a supportive space in terms of gender identity. I guess I was wrong. I will continue to support trans people for the same reasons, I support everyone. Human rights.
This place can be supportive of trans rights and also downvote bad logic and arguments.
Trans men don’t “want to feel like a man”. They are trans specifically because they already feel like a man.
In addition, your comment was a total non sequitur. We were talking about the fragile egos of certain cis men, and you brought up trans men. And did so in a way that makes you look like you’re trying to be offended.
You seem like a good person. Please keep up the fight, but pick your battles a little more wisely.
I’d say it’s rather that a trans person shouldn’t prove anything to anyone, same as cis. If they feel the need to prove, that’s likely because of influence of toxic gender standards
Well I don’t know where you read the proving part. it is about feeling like a gender, not proving that you are. If you want to change topics, sure, we can talk about a different topic. Do you like Chinese food?
Do you like Chinese food?
Yes, I do. I also do think that you were also reading what wasn’t in the thread starter’s post
It is the logical conclusion of comment. Trans men are men. Unless you want to argue that they aren’t. Or that the men in the comments were implied to be cis men and then want to argue that cis and trans people should be treated differently to each other and therefore a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t.
It is the logical conclusion of comment
No, why?
Trans men are men.
Yes. And to be men the don’t need to say that. Visibility is another thing, and in that regard one might argue that they need, but I think that increasing trans visibility is not the same as ‘I am man’ statements
Edit:
a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t
To this I would also say ‘No’, but I’m starting to guess, we have a very different views on what it is to ‘feel like a man’
Okay the post talks about “needing to feel like a man”. (I am ignoring The comment on the picture because that is not what my issue is. My issue is the general statement in the post of the “aunt” in the picture and The comment section here) The comment is a reaction gifs and I think you agree that maybe you shouldn’t take reaction gifs 100% literally without any adaption to the context. Here the context is men FEELING manly. So I think it is fair to understand it as “if you have to say that you want to feel manly, you aren’t”
In that context, you can’t remove looking like a man, or maybe doing stereotypical man stuff, or anything that makes that person feel manly. The questions are, of course, what the fuck do you need to feel manly? What causes you to say that? What are you requiring?
All Women need to submit to you? Well that is completely unreasonable and you are an idiot. Not wanting to have your living room painted in pink, rather reasonable.
I heavily reject the notion that you or me get to decide what makes someone feel manly. If it is something that would require something from someone else, Of course, there are reasonable requests and unreasonable requests. And you can reject to fulfill them, you can even mock them if you want, but they aren’t less of a man for wanting to feel like one and painting that desire with a broad brush like in aunt’s post is also pretty bad (and probably sexist)
Maybe we have a different view on what it is to feel like a man. But if that is the case, then tell me, why are we judging men for expressing that they want to feel like a man without asking them what the fuck they mean? Because we would mean different things, so why wouldn’t they mean something else than you or me?
The reason you’re getting downvoted is because you seem to be missing the point of the meme and then are getting argumentative.
What is the point of the meme? How is it not ridiculing/dismissing the desire of a man to feel manly? Something that rightfully usually finds support here for trans man.
Because it’s not ridiculing someone for feeling manly, it’s ridiculing the kind of person that goes around stating they’re manly as fuck all the time, going out of their way to show how manly they are and generally making “manliness” their entire personality.
Where does it say that?
The post in the picture, just completely dismiss any possibility other than a man wanting to feel superior.
That is the starting point, that is what I am talking about.
The comment in the picture provides us with a story and context but it is not the same story or context because it is a different user sharing their experience. I have no issue with that.
The reaction gif is implying that you aren’t a man if you express that you want to feel like one.
Where does it say that you say it says? Where does it state that it is about making it your entire personality? Where does it say, it is about people who want to show how manly they? Where does it state that they don’t like a man stating that they are so manly? It seems to be about the opposite. A man who struggles with feeling manly. Where does it state that it is something the person does all the time?
Some of these are inconsequential in some scenarios but all of them highlight how much you read in there that just is not present to justify toxic language and behavior.
The reaction gif is implying that you aren’t a man if you express that you want to feel like one.
Doesn’t say that anywhere on the gif
You are correct, technically it doesn’t. It is about kings, and the poster tells you to replace king with man.
Also technically it is saying that a trans person who tells you that they are a man, is not a real man. I mean trans men are men.
But I don’t think that is a fair reading of the text. But sure you can read the message that I call toxic, as a toxic message to men in general and especially towards trans men. I just don’t see where you want to go with that.
Alternatively, and admittedly, I am reading it in the context of the post in which it is about men expressing that they want to feel manly. Still toxic, and implicitly transphobic, but at least matching the post.
Why is it you’re allowed to infer things the meme doesn’t say but I’m not?
What am I infer that it doesn’t say? I am willing to give that point up if you can make your case.
I thought “feeling like a man” meant eating a lot of meat and losing money on sports betting.
Idk I don’t do traditional man things.
I do do traditional man things: woodworking, maintenance on the family vehicles, and I’ve been thinking of getting into machining as a hobby because I have a lot of hand-me-down yard equipment that’s showing its age and I might need to start making my own parts because eBay is looking kind of barren.
Anyway, none of these activities have ever made me feel “manly” I never understood what that means. I feel like myself doing either something I enjoy, or something that needs to be done. My wife always says that she likes that she married such a manly guy who can fix all this stuff and make furniture, but anyone with functioning hands and a brain can do this stuff, it’s not exactly hard. Having a penis doesn’t make you an expert carpenter or mediocre mechanic, working with wood and old engines does that.
I know you’re joking, but I don’t get people who unironically think like this. Like whats preventing a woman from eating lots of meat and losing money on sports betting? Like what physical barrier prevents them from doing that? None.
So how could that define manhood?
So how could that define manhood?
Societal expectations. If enough people think it does then it does. Doesn’t mean non-men can’t do it, but they might get ostracized for it, just like men are when they do certain female-coded things. Why is blue for boys and pink for girls? Why are high-heels for women only? Doesn’t have to make any actual sense, it just kinda is right now, even though it wasn’t always the case.
It’s all society. Always has been. Always will be. There are some very specific biological differences in the two sexes, and we’ve used those real differences to decide a bunch of fake differences we stick to out of convention. There’s an idea of what a man is in our collective unconscious, an archetypal “man”, and that’s what people refer to, but that archetype is breaking down. Man, woman, gender in general. We’re realizing that those distinctions aren’t useful, and sometimes, maybe even most of the time, are detrimental.
That all said, humans are social creatures. That pressure, that idea of “man” is all around us. It’s absolutely understandable that people can still generalize what “man” is. The concept doesn’t have to be based on anything tangible to be relevant to our species.
Most ‘man’ things make me feel awkward and uncomfortable. Even when I was a kid. Other boys would wrestle and push each other around and stuff and I was like, “yeah, don’t involve me in this.”
And yet I have never been insecure about my gender. I’m fine being a man who isn’t “traditionally” male.
I don’t even own one flannel shirt.
If Men want to feel like Men then they have ways to deal with their insecurity:
Redo their own plumbing, twice. Once to change things and again to fix the problem they caused.
Chop firewood.
Build a furnace that you’re only going to use like 4 times, ever.
50 pushups. If not reaching it makes you sad, start skipping numbers.
Redo their own plumbing, twice. Once to change things and again to fix the problem they caused.
I’m in this comment and I don’t like it.
Plumbing is the one thing I won’t do myself in diy. If screw ups are made I want the responsible party to fix things, and I don’t want to be that party.
Add electrical to that list, because I’m not a fucking wizard, and electricity is magic.
Similarly there is an old adage that a home plumbing repair will take three trips to the hardware store.
This also describes me.
With the plumbing example, the first time was a training exercise and doesn’t count.
I met a marine mechanic once - he fixed Argos afterwards, which is how I met him. His saying:
One [nut] for me, one for the bilge.
Thank you to everyone in this thread who made me feel part of a community of my peers online for the first time, in a long time.
Every plumbing project (even yesterdays quick upgrade of the kitchen faucet) is at least a 2 tripper. Each time I finish one I swear I’m never moving again. Then, 5 years later, I’m fixing the previous owners mishaps “one last time”.
To all the people who’ve bought houses I lived in, I’m sorry for all of the " what was that idiot thinking" moments I’ve caused you. Ha
To all the people who’ve bought houses I lived in, I’m sorry for all of the " what was that idiot thinking" moments I’ve caused you. Ha
Hmm from what you said it’s more like, “Yup, I can see what shit the last guy had to fix. Thanks friend I’ll never meet.”
I’ll take that perspective! Cheers
Argos is still frustrating at times, he did not succeed.
If not reaching it makes you sad,
start skipping numbersforgive yourself and repeat tomorrow. You’ll feel awesome when you get there.NO. THATS NOT MANLY ENOUGH. REAL MEN GIVE THEMSELVES THE AUTHORITY TO SKIP NUMBERS.
No! Perfection every time! Especially the first time.
And if i have to pretend that your ass looks good for you to feel good about your ass, your ass doesn’t look good.
Now let’s get past the idea that relationships don’t involve theater for our partner’s benefit.
When first reading “a man likes to feel like a man”, i thought it was about trans men
Lol yeah I’ve never heard an adult male say this so that’s the route I was going down too
I’ve never heard anyone say that phrase, is it possible that people use that expression to mean “a man likes to feel like a man… not a machine”? Ie he has thoughts, emotions, and priorities. He is not a commodity, his worth is more than just profit he can produce.
Not that women don’t also have those attributes, just that “man” is being used as an outdated shorthand for humanity.
I’m not sure how i feel about the post altogether. I mean, i understand that toxic masculinity is bad, but this post needs some assumptions and context to make me want to side with it. For example, if I saw some guy just kinda minding his business doing silly guy stuff and the context was he wants to “feel like a man,” i don’t think i would be offended or concerned?
r/justguysbeingdudes comes to mind
I’ve heard this one before from my conservative grandma, It’s when a girl is doing something manly that the guy ““should”” be doing. Like if a girl is carrying in all the groceries while a guy is just watching someone would say “let [guy] do it, he’s supposed to feel like a man”
This came up a lot as my sister is very much a ‘do it yourself’ kinda gal whereas her (now ex) boyfriend wasn’t much of an initiative taker.
It’s not about a guy not doing manly things, it’s about stopping women from doing manly things.
(also note I’m using ‘manly’ in the stereotypical terms, not how I personally see them)Again, that’s added context. I don’t know how feeling like a man is stopping a women from anything. I don’t think that’s a necessary component of the statement at all, though i appreciate the reply
“A man likes to feel like a man” is a good reason to allow trans men to get top surgery.
Whatever makes them happy I guess?
It probably is about feeling useful/needed. That’s what men are taught to measure their self-worth in.
I think that’s one possible explanation, but it’s vague enough that it could be other things too.
It’s hard to tell from the context, but it felt to me more like something a right-wing guy with really unrealistic expectations says to their soon to be ex-girlfriend (or possibly to the fiance in the marriage the church arranged) about how they need to be the one in charge.
Yeah I think we should believe that the witness correctly interpreted the meaning in the given context, but we shouldn’t assume that everyone that says it means it like that. It’s context dependant.
That’s the perfect answer, IMHO.
More in general, it’s not up to others to change the way they act to feed somebody else’s self-delusions of having some kind of quality they do not have.
I’ve actually had to deal with something somewhat parallel to this when I moved from The Netherlands (whose people are known for being blunt) to Britain (were everything is sugarcoated and people are evasive, the higher the social class the worst it gets) and then proceeded to go around unknowingly insulting just about every insecure person I met in that place by giving them my blunt opinion on what they cared about, without evasiveness or sugarcoating.
The balance I found was to stop giving my opinion unless asked and if asked by somebody who didn’t know my ways yet, give them a notice (“I used to live in The Netherlands so just point out ways in which things can be improved, but that doesn’t mean I think they’re bad”) and then proceed to give them my blunt opinion.
Is this a real thing? I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered this. I suspect they’re actually being demeaning to men in general, or men who don’t fit their idea of masculinity. I’ve encountered people like that. Though the opposite is more common (men, and women, demeaning women who don’t fit their idea of what a woman should be like, or just demeaning women in general).
I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered this.
It very much is something you’ll find in advice columns for women.
I also have never encountered this, although i didn’t reach the same conclusion (or any conclusion apart from this is rare or not a thing).
Now im thinking about it you’re probably right
Did the first person just translate “like a man” as “superior to you”? They done failed their own little word game.
Only if you’re completely unwilling to unpack what things like “be a man” and “like a man” generally mean in the anglosphere, and how phrases like that have often been employed to reinforce the worst and most destructive aspects of masculinity.
Recent results show this is exactly what is happening.
