- cross-posted to:
- usa@midwest.social
- cross-posted to:
- usa@midwest.social
Summary
Trump’s popular vote share has fallen below 50% to 49.94%, with Kamala Harris at 48.26%, narrowing his margin of victory.
Trump’s share of the popular vote is lower than Biden’s in 2020 (51.3%), Obama’s in 2012 (51.1%) and 2008 (52.9%), George W. Bush’s in 2004 (50.7%), George H.W. Bush’s in 1988 (53.2%), Reagan’s in 1984 (58.8%) and 1980 (50.7%), and Carter’s in 1976 (50.1%).
The 2024 election results highlight Trump’s narrow victory and the need for Democrats to address their mistakes and build a diverse working-class coalition.
The numbers also give Democrats a reason to push back on Trump’s mandate claims, noting most Americans did not vote for him.
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The fact that a majority of voters did not want Trump to win makes me simultaneously feel happy (that I’m not surrounded by idiots) and more depressed (that the Electoral College has screwed us AGAIN!)
It’s a lack of majority not a lack of plurality. Harris is still trailing Trump by 3m votes or so (and 1.6%), Trump is just not above 50% after further votes have been counted. So this isn’t an electoral college steal
Yeah, but even if Kamala wins the popular vote, this is going to be the closest a republican has gotten in…
Decades?
Maybe longer?
But the DNC is going to latch onto this and try to claim if they had moved just a little more right they’d have won.
Regardless of what happens, the DNC will always say the answer is moving to the right.
The DNC brain trust is already claiming that they should go further to the right
They were told they abandoned workers, and somehow heard “What if we betray Transpeople?”
They’re already starting to trial run the messaging through lower ranking democrats in safe seats. (Link)
Well at least they’re getting roasted for it, I mean in this link the aide who said that was fucking fired over it. Yeah it said he resigned, but when you get up enough you aren’t “fired” you’re “asked to resign”
Oh no, you’re reading that wrong. The aide resigned in protest to Rep. Moulton’s comments. The article also quotes Rep. Tom Suozzi. Moulton is also in the House Equality Caucus, which is supposed to be protecting LGBTQ rights. I’m not sure how they square that with his comments that fundamentally misunderstand the process for transgender kids though. His comments show a fundamental misunderstanding of scholastic sports, human physiology, and hormone blockers. Which you think 2 of the 3 would be required reading for that caucus…
Corporations fund the big name democrats and their campaigns. These same corporations benefit greatly from Republican wins. They are buying intentionally ineffective democrats who are unincentivized to either win races or appeal to worker interests as they are typically directly at odds with these big bankrolling corporations.
I am not saying every democrat is paid for or every democrat is ineffective or democrats as a whole are an entirely bought and paid for organization, but what I am saying is that enough of the prominent enough democrats legitimately are financially disincentivized from helping the people they’re supposed to represent so as to effectively gum up the works of the whole machine.
deleted by creator
“Poor me, my constitutes don’t like that I am not representing them in government. Corporate lobbiest, you’ve done nothing but shower me in money, won’t you tell me what Americans really want?”
Regardless of what happens, the DNC will always say the answer is moving to the right.
This isn’t borne out by trending or statements. What kind of crystal ball are you smoking?
Two examples: ran on being humane to migrants and continued title 42 three years into the Biden term and proposed a draconian new immigration law.
Ran on reforming the police, flooded them with money.
The kind that’s had me watching politics since Clinton… Have you been under a rock?
FPTP should get FAR more attention as the culprit for this situation. Sure, the electoral college caused Kamala to lose (or whatever) but if we had a true democracy, there wouldn’t be only two possible parties to choose from.
This fixes congress. How does this fix the presidency, which is one single office?
FPTP applies to ALL political offices in a country that uses it.
Using the presidency in this graphic would have been a very poor choice to display the difference between the two. Comparing 1 result with another result on a scale of 1 person would not have the pedagogical weight that the Congress graphic does.
Yes, and you abolish FPTP and now you elect a president how? I’m interested in your proposal, because it’s incomplete to say get rid of FPTP… Otherwise top vote getter, who gets maybe 30% of the vote leads the country which is also an abomination as 70% didn’t vote for that person.
Abolishing FPTP requires doing something else on top of it, ranked choice or run off would be better than the highest count.
Ranked choice voting
Right that is the problem wolfpack described. So what’s the solution?
Ranked choice voting
It could give people opportunities to vote for third parties without feeling like they’re throwing away their vote
Okay so you go with what system?
Let’s say the breakdown of votes looks the same as the Swedish breakdown. There will be more people that voted for a different candidate than the red one (Social Democrat).
This then requires a run off system like france, or a ranked choice, which is also fine to propose, but you can’t hold up a visual of a parliament and say the system is so much better, when we talk about one singular office.
The post compared two things that have different end goals
Any system where your vote is a list instead of a checkbox.
That way in 2016 you can vote for Bernie as 1, and if he loses, you can vote for Hillary by putting her as 2. You don’t have to give up your moonshot to get your safety net.
Great video on the problems with first past the post, with links to some other videos discussing better systems: https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
You can do it in a multitude of ways. The French for instance elect their president by voting twice, the first time they vote for their favorite candidate (and the parliament), the second time they vote for either of the two candidates that got the most votes (a run off)
There are other ways, like ranked voting, or you could look up parliamentary republics for an alternative form of government.
Read up on what happens in the rest of the world, at this point, we, as a human species, have tried pretty much everything
the simplest fix for states would be to adopt something like what maine and nebraska have, since they have vastly more representative turnout compared to FPTP.
Wouldn’t be perfect, but would basically kill any chance of republican DEI in the fed ever again lol.
Don’t worry, you’re still surrounded by idiots no matter who wins the presidency
Yeah does it really make that much of a difference in terms of “being surrounded by idiots” whether 51% of the people around you are idiots or 49%? Sure, I’d prefer the 49% scenario, especially if there’s an election happening, but you’re still surrounded by idiots.
The fact that Trump could get elected at all, let alone twice, is proof that there’s too many idiots to want to participate in normal society
Typical liberal cope.
“We KINDA won!”
Face it y’all. Democrats and liberals are a LOSING block. FAILURES.
I’ll continue to vote straight D, because it’s the only choice I got. Fucking losers and failures.
He still had more of the popular vote than Harris, it was just they were both less than 50% due to 3rd party votes. So neither had a “majority” of the vote.
So he still would have won, even under a purely popular vote based system.
Another thing it means is that if we had ranked choice voting, those 3rd party votes would be the deciding factor in who won the presidency.
If we had ranked choice and got rid of the electoral college*
A lot of those third party votes are in solid red or blue states where it wouldn’t matter. Also a lot of the third party votes this time was for rfk and the libertarian Oliver, who wouldve probably went to trump so the outcome would probably be the same.
Since it’s just about a half split, you’re at least semi-circled by idiots.
So stay away from walls and other obstacles you can back into…got it!
To be clear, because the headline I think is a bit misrepresentative. Trump still has over a million more votes than Harris. He just no longer has over 50% of the votes cast.
It’s like 49% Trump, 48% Harris, 3% Other. So Trump still won the popular vote.
This isn’t a “the Electoral College screwed us” situation. He still “won” the popular vote. He just didn’t win a “majority” of the votes cast.
Yep. And as much as I’d like to blame 3rd party voters, even if they all voted Harris to giver her the majority, she’d have still lost due to electoral college.
I will absolutely blame the non-voters though. And the 3rd party voters still get part of the blame.
This is a ridiculous argument. Orange man won the electoral college, got the most votes, won the senate, house of reps, the presidency, and the supreme court. What more is there to lose?
Plenty of coping from the liberal corporate media, instead of admitting that liberals abandoned the working class to court the monied interests.
It really didn’t have much to do with abandoning anyone. It didn’t matter what democrats proposed at all. The vast majority of people answers they were dissatisfied with America in exit polls. The economy is doing fine on paper but people don’t feel that way. It was the inability to distance from Biden and provide actual radical solutions to things that got them voted down.
At this point it has nothing to do with working class policies. It has everything to do with voter dissatisfaction and pandering to moderates.
The third dimension of the political compass is radical vs. moderate. People want more radical change, and the Democrats didn’t meet them there.
Exactly. In a high dissatisfaction environment, you must do your best to distance from the status quo which is why Trump got elected twice. It’s not that democrats are proposing bad policies, it’s that they’re only associated with changes that don’t mean much to average people. They represent the status quo far too much to be interesting.
The economy doing fine means nothing for 99.9% of people. All that means is rich people made money. People have seen a decrease in their pockets
The economy doing fine means nothing for 99.9% of people.
this isn’t actually true. The economy just leads the people in most circumstances. 6 Months from now the economy will be doing better than it was now, and people won’t be struggling as much. Not due to trump, amusingly enough.
Also inflation is irrelevant, you can’t really just undo inflation. Sure you could just, not do it. But good luck with that one. Inflation is really just a mechanism to offset economic dysfunction, and broaden the impact of it. Such that you don’t have a complete global collapse of trade for example.
Not sure why everyone keeps suggesting that the economy will do well under trump. It will only do well if he doesn’t do anything. But the deportations alone will be a disaster.
You’re talking about entire towns losing their farming and dairy communities overnight, not good. Same is true of healthcare workers and food service. Housing prices might double.
And if he does the tariffs, we’re cooked. Recession would happen the very next day no question. So he has like 5 different ways he already plans on taking the economy, he just needs to try one of them and we’ll be in recession.
Bitcoin is already way up
bitcoin is based on how much i fucked your mom last night, so that makes sense.
Not sure why everyone keeps suggesting that the economy will do well under trump. It will only do well if he doesn’t do anything. But the deportations alone will be a disaster.
and the tariffs. And the isolationism, and the retraction from globalism. Plus his intent to move the fed under the control of the executive. Generally, all in all, a bad outlook.
it’s going to be an interesting four years for sure, and i have two litmus tests for how fucked we are. If the tariffs go through, we’re moderately fucked, and if the fed gets put under exec, we’re joever.
Yep. The “liberal media” kept up a drum beat with the inflation and of course did next to nothing to tell the low info the real source and it wasn’t all inflation.
idk why people keep yapping about abandoning the working class, it mostly just seems like a dogwhistle to a general dissatisfaction that never seems to go away.
People were doing the same shit before biden dropped out, saying they would support someone else, like kamala. That happened, and then they didn’t.
how would the liberals court the working class? would electing a fucking immigrant factory worker do it? At what point does the working class actually go “you know what, i agree, i will vote for this person” because the problem is, you can’t just put some guy in the seat, we did that with trump, it was a horrendous mistake, and trump should have some idea of how this stuff works.
You need someone politically educated and experienced, capable of representing the people, like biden. There’s a reason he got so much legislation through the government, even with how polarized it is right now.
unless of course, you want to overthrow the government, and install a dictator. That would also work.
Bernie Sanders is correct that the Democrats abandoned the working class. I will be blunt and say that Lemmy has ironic bigotry and disdain on the people of colour and working class who voted for Trump. It is important to understand the other side even if you don’t agree; that way you would know where they are coming from and sway them. Call Trump voters of all backgrounds racists, hillbillies, mysoginists, redneck, traitors, Uncle Toms or Uncle Hector; but people don’t have jobs and crime rate is up. The former blue wall is now the orange Rust Belt that colours Trump. And it is taboo to say this but many places are indeed overwhelmed by too much immigration since those places don’t have the infrastructure to support the sudden population increase. Chronically underfunded public services make locals and immigrants compete for school, jobs and hospital beds. Immigrants are blamed instead, when in fact it’s the affluent middle and upper classes who keep voting against building more social housing and expanding health services because they don’t want their property value to go down and/or pay more taxes. And frankly, I believe many Lemmy users fall into this class camp and don’t want to admit we’re part of the problem. Many of us are college-educated with higher economic mobility and earnings live in safe and affluent areas because we benefit from the new knowledge economy. We are not rubbing shoulders with working class folks who lost their traditional manufacturing jobs and not experiencing their every day struggle. So, we become detached from the real lived experiences of those left out and deprived of opportunities. We consign rural and de-industrialised Appalachian former workers as ignorant and racists, when in fact we’re also being bigoted against them for dismissing their genuine feelings of not having anymore jobs left, and their community left rotting by offshoring and automation caused by mismanaged globalisation. Why else has protectionism returned to the political menu? Has no one asked this instead of simply saying autarky and protectionism is dumb and makes their favourite video-games more expensive?
Simply saying that the economy is doing better is not enough if the rest are not feeling it. Just because we’re feeling cushy in our office job doesn’t mean those in the Rust Belt are feeling the same. We would not say we’re fine if we have cancer on the liver while the rest of the body don’t.
There is no denying that there are outright bigotry, but many people are left behind by emerging new technology and job market trend. And the folks who are out of jobs who could not put food on the table is the stuff that dictators are made of. I did not say this, it was Franklin Roosevelt. He knows that desperate people are easily brainwashed and swayed. Tell me you have not been in a dark place on a personal level before and you have not had negative thoughts dominate? It’s the same situation happening right now with the working class which manifest on the societal level.
If the mostly affluent Lemmy users, progressives and liberals realise this, then we can take back progressivism into the political spotlight. The same progressives who always call for empathy do not place the same to the blue collar, working class folks left behind economically. Progressives need to understand the people different from them. It is only right to learn even from the other side.
During the Great Depression, neighbours would buy their neighbouring farmers’ property at a penny to prevent being possessed by uncallous bankers, and threaten auctioneers for not agreeing with the sale. Where is that solidarity right now?
I will be blunt and say that Lemmy has ironic bigotry and disdain on the people of colour and working class who voted for Trump.
it’s not that complex, i just think that everyone who voted for trump is stupid. Or at the very least, incredibly ignorant. And the facts back me up on this one.
It is important to understand the other side even if you don’t agree; that way you would know where they are coming from and sway them.
literally how, they live in delusion, They do not live in reality. They think “illegal immigrants” aren’t here of legal status. Which is factually untrue. They think democrat cities are a hellhole, and they think they have more gun violence than red states, which is also untrue. In fact large urban cities tend to have the lowest per capita gun violence rates. They think kamala harris is a literal communistic fascist trying to overthrow the government and steal power from biden.
They also think that jan 6th was a guided tour of the capitol, and when presented with information will tell you it was either “FBI agents” or “antifa”
They can’t even tell you what caused the inflation in 2020-2024.
These people are akin to dementia patients. How are we supposed to understand them?
but people don’t have jobs and crime rate is up.
according to what, and on what timescales? Unemployment is still relatively low, and crime rates have been trending down since post pandemic. It seems like things might be moderately worse, mostly because of inflation, but that’s about it.
The former blue wall is now the orange Rust Belt that colours Trump.
it’s literally been one election cycle. If this is our standard of proof, this has already happened before, a few times probably.
And it is taboo to say this but many places are indeed overwhelmed by too much immigration since those places don’t have the infrastructure to support the sudden population increase.
and who is responsible for this? Republicans, the people we just elected. We had two border bills under biden, title 42 for the rest of the term, and a late executive order to actually do something after the congress failed twice.
Chronically underfunded public services make locals and immigrants compete for school, jobs and hospital beds. Immigrants are blamed instead, when in fact it’s the affluent middle and upper classes who keep voting against building more social housing and expanding health services because they don’t want their property value to go down and/or pay more taxes.
technically it’s the asylum immigration causing this strain, since they aren’t full citizens yet, or kicked out for not passing asylum court, but of course, nobody wants to pay a few million dollars in the fed to fix this problem outright. Although there are problems with things like NIMBYism and people not voting for things like funding education, which has been a republican talking point for ages so there’s that.
And frankly, I believe many Lemmy users fall into this class camp and don’t want to admit we’re part of the problem.
i’m not, and never will be, even if i had the money it wouldn’t be a problem for me. I hate being around people. So this will never be a particular strong suit or problem point for me.
We are not rubbing shoulders with working class folks who lost their traditional manufacturing jobs and not experiencing their every day struggle.
we also have to ascribe some blame to people who simply do not want to move out of the working class as well. Not to double back and be classist here, but coal mining? Seriously? That industry is dead! Get over it and get another job already! Oh what’s that, your entire county is out of work? Sounds like a governmental failure. They should’ve done better.
This is a really big problem with republican populism right now.
We consign rural and de-industrialised Appalachian former workers as ignorant and racists, when in fact we’re also being bigoted against them for dismissing their genuine feelings of not having anymore jobs left, and their community left rotting by offshoring and automation caused by mismanaged globalisation.
and unfortunately, they don’t do themselves many favors half the time either. It is the rural voter block that backs trump mostly at the end of the day. They also don’t do themselves much of a favor calling dems pedos and child rapists, or communist authoritarians either. I’m certain not all of them do it, and i’m open to the ones who don’t. Though if they aren’t open to my existence, i’m not going to psyop myself out of existence here unfortunately. My bare minimum here is living in reality, and not being delusional. If you can meet that bar, we will get along well, if not, oh well, gotta crack some eggs to make an omelet i suppose.
when in fact we’re also being bigoted against them for dismissing their genuine feelings of not having anymore jobs left
not saying i disagree, but please do some polling about how many rural people would like to move to urban areas for job opportunities.
Why else has protectionism returned to the political menu?
right wing populism.
And the folks who are out of jobs who could not put food on the table is the stuff that dictators are made of. I did not say this, it was Franklin Roosevelt. He knows that desperate people are easily brainwashed and swayed.
you mean during the great depression? The single worst economic collapse, ever.
The same progressives who always call for empathy do not place the same to the blue collar, working class folks left behind economically. Progressives need to understand the people different from them. It is only right to learn even from the other side.
you cannot extend empathy to that which does not request it.
like ultimately, i’m sympathetic to this, but the US doesn’t need this right now, it needs a reality check.
Would you say the same to the black and Hispanic voters who elected Trump as being stupid? Look at Europe and they have also have the same far-right problem. De-industrialised Northern France, Eastern Sweden and East Germany are voting the far-right. You can’t just tell people to reskill when there are no alternatives offered. You can’t also expect them to move. There are still people living in Detroit, right? The problem with Western governments and its citizens is they are bad with offering alternatives and essentially abandoned the working-class. Just look at Liverpool-- they were the second busiest port city in Britain but experienced economic and population decline in the latter half of 20th century. Despite all that, the government of Liverpool has been effective in investing in their communities, attracting businesses, and revitalising their economy and city. And they have always been proud multicultural, has strong working-class background who always voted for Labour, and voted to Remain in the EU unlike its similarly neighbouring de-industralised Northern English counties.
Sure, there are racists who voted Remain, Trump, Sweden Democrats and Le Pen, but liberals need to realise that you can call others racists or misogynists if they haven’t offered alternatives. I found it laughable that anti-Trumper social and news bubble keep making character assassinations, but rarely I see posts highlighting how Democrats would do better economically than Trump (and frankly, Harris’ economic platform isn’t very appealing compared to Trump which is why I understand why people voted for him). Otherwise, those who are left to fend for themselves are feeling vulnerable and lost in a dark place are desperate to hug a dark embrace from the allure of easy promises. I’m amazed you dismissed FDR’s quote about economically insecure folks being the ingredients of a dictatorship. It is true then and true now. It just so happens that I am listening to a podcast and the main criticism on both liberal and left alike is the grown hubris of appearing know-it-all and taking down the working-class, either intentionally or not. The sooner the left, liberals and progressives get out of their bubble, look at the problem at close distance, and search for others for inspiration (Liverpool’s revitalisation is a success for example), then the sooner they would win back the next election. There is a reason why many electorates sat down because they were not inspired. It’s not enough to tell other eligible voters of “tRoLlEy pRoBlEm” which Lemmy and the left drool over. Offer tangible solutions. Blame inflation as much as anyone wants, but the fact of the matter is that Democrats haven’t done enough to alleviate the effects which does not make much of the people “feel” the growing economy.
you think im going to leave out black and hispanic people? Isn’t that equally as racist. I firmly believe that if you voted for trump in 2020 or 2024, you are either, stupid, or maliciously ignorant, and it’s one of the two.
You can’t just tell people to reskill when there are no alternatives offered.
my brother in christ, we are long past any alternatives, republicans have been steaming full speed ahead into pseudo fascism for a long time, a caring mother isn’t going to stop a psychopathic kid from killing her if they desire.
but rarely I see posts highlighting how Democrats would do better economically than Trump (and frankly, Harris’ economic platform isn’t very appealing compared to Trump which is why I understand why people voted for him).
you really need to have better social media and internet presence than. There have been LOTS of videos, and posts about how trump is going to be bad for the economy. Seems to me like you’re doing trump apologism right now.
If we’re talking platform wise, trumps platform is objectively and measurably worse than kamalas. You may not know this, on account of being stupid of maliciously ignorant, but that’s not my fault. Global tariffs are a hilariously terrible idea. Bringing the fed under the control of the executive, is an absolute meme. Appointing the richest man in the world, to an apartment for government efficiency, is pure fucking oligarchy. You can’t be unironically serious when you state “trumps economic policy is better” when you’re staring into the eyes of a fucking russian oligarch that owns an entire nations oil industry. Let alone one that has a position in government.
I’m amazed you dismissed FDR’s quote about economically insecure folks being the ingredients of a dictatorship.
i was just pointing out how demonstrable it is that the voting populous is stupid and ignorant on most things, considering they would rather vote in a dictator, than do literally anything else. Covid may have also been a recession as well, but not a depression, not a global incapacity for economic trade and movement. We’re doing fine as far as that goes right now, we’re just experiencing high inflation in the wake of the entire global shipping industry shutting down for a year.
It just so happens that I am listening to a podcast and the main criticism on both liberal and left alike is the grown hubris of appearing know-it-all and taking down the working-class, either intentionally or not.
you mind sharing the podcast? Curious what it is.
Offer tangible solutions.
you mean like kamalas policy? All of the ones that she actually had, unlike trump who “had concepts of a plan”
The consequences of inflation had been decades in the making. Thirty years of neoliberal policies and fifty plus years of stagnation on real wages is now paying its dues, because real wages has not kept up with ever rising inflation. The working class is certainly the most affected and even experienced lower growth in real wage. While not the sole problem, it contributes to radicalising a population. The US and other parts of the word had it coming because of said policies. Prices of less valuable consumer goods have gone down, but the basic essentials and health care keeps going up and up. That being said, the overall inflation has decreased since the pandemic but basic essentials has not. Those with higher income may not feel the pinch, but the working class and many in the lower middle class certainly does. These people are brainwashed and hoodwinked to blame the wrong people like immigrants, minorities and lgbt, while the monied class gets away with it.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”- Lyndon B. Johnson
It’s not Trump apologism-- it’s reality check. The left and liberals should get out of their bubble, because they are doing the inverse of being hoodwinked by convincing them to look down on the working class as well. Who are the ones constantly blocking affordable housing in the liberal-bastion that is California? That’s right, it’s the liberals themselves, who are also rich like many conservatives are. You could easily Google the information on that one if you don’t believe me. Are you also aware that California put anti-homeless spikes and other deterents on areas where the vagabonds sleep? I’m sure many of those homeless folks came from poorer states to look for a job in California; but the lack of affordable housing and being unable to find a job with decent pay to afford rent renders them vulnerable. They did what many told them to do: move out of their shithole places and go to where there is opportunity, right?
The podcast I refered to is in my native language which is hosted by a highly-esteemed professor and political analyst who has been invited by international news outlets for interviews including The Guardian, BBC, ABC, and Al Jazeera. He is a social democrat but a critic of those from the affluent section of the left and liberals who keep putting down the working-class. Slavoj Zizek also made the same broad observation about the left and liberals-- that there is a certain naïveté among the group.
This isn’t being apologetic for Trump-- it is a wakeup call for the left, whose former base is the working-class but is now subsumed by the far-right (liberals in the classical sense have hardly been reliable as class-ally), to be aware of the blindspot and close that narrow gap of a spot. Yes, one can keep calling the working-class racist or bigoted, but they are the ones who have once voted for the left but now keep voting far-right. It is worth pointing out you seem to refuse to acknowledge that. Look around you. Look outside your home, outside your town, outside of your state, and outside of your country, the working class used to vote for the left but what happened? Look around and ask yourself that question and you will find your answer. There is no longer a version of penny auction in this generation. As in, there is no longer a class-solidarity that existed during the Depression era. The affluent today show concerns for the homeless and less fortunate, but when it is time for call to action, there is little appetite to approve alleviating the cost of living and housing crisis, and consign the working class as dumb and bigots, instead of realising these have been brainwashed to scapegoat the innocent.
Going to the Harris promise, I admire the promise to build 3 million homes but the $25,000 downpayment to buy a house as government assistance isn’t exactly appealing considering how much the average American house prices are these days. Trump promised no taxes on tips and then Harris simply copied it. Why not increase the federal wage instead? Oh that’s right, the Democratic party is in actuality a spineless center-right party who don’t want to rub their rich donors the wrong way. Unfortunately, Trump promised to re-energise the dying fossil fuel industry, which appeals to the working-class. But what have the Democrats promised as alternative in the former blue wall to dis-incentivise working in the fossil fuel industry? What have the Democrats promised to replace the old manufacturing jobs with? Can you really blame the working class for siding the Republicans with promise of re-shoring more jobs and putting tariffs on imports?
There needs to be another Roosevelt who has the spine to stand up and not be afraid of monied interests, despite coming from old money itself. Again, there is no class solidarity nowadays. The liberals and left indeed abandoned the working-class.
Control of his ticker, one hopes
He lost last time and we let him take it. We dont have to keep letting him steal the office
Well the left lost thier sanity so everything else has become trivial.
58% of the deciding power with just under 50% of the vote?
This might be a catalyst for states to sign the NPVIC. Pennsylvania started the process to sign on this week in legislature.
Perhaps in the past, swing states enjoyed the attention they got.
Now, I have a feeling voters are frustrated from getting way too much attention with mailers, calls, texts, illegal lotteries, news stories, events. As a bonus, voters in swing states are and will be getting outsized blame for electing the returning rapist-in-chief. Anyways a potential silver lining in the impending sea of shit.
Think about the NPVIC critically for a moment. What would you have done if your state voted for Harris, but some agreement your state legislators made forced your state’s EC votes to go to Trump? Suppose the margins were narrow enough that your state’s EC votes were the deciding factor.
I would be contacting my state representatives and governor immediately, demanding they withdraw from that compact before the EC votes are cast in December.
Trump voters would make similar demands of their state if the situation were reversed.
The NPVIC will never actually affect an election, because the participating states would almost certainly withdraw long before it did.
There was some misinformation like that spread about Colorado this year, where more people voted Harris but the state assigned their electors to Trump. Only would happen if the compact is in force.
Thing is though, as it stands with the EC, neither party gives a shit about Colorado in elections as a 54/44 split is treated as a “given” for the Dems. With a national popular vote, every blue vote in Colorado or Washington, would matter just as much as a red vote in California, same as a blue vote in Oklahoma or a red vote in Montana.
Sure, people will try to call their reps and sue if they think their state could flip the result when EC doesn’t match the popular vote result. Those processes tend to take a long time that the chances of reversing it before January are slim. This election, it would have gone to Trump either way since he had a plurality of votes. Is it really fair that only 7 or 8 states of 50 had over 90% of the campaign visits, and nearly half had none?
You don’t have to convince me of the merits of bypassing the EC.
You do have to convince me that the NPVIC will remain in effect after one election. Yes, repealing something like this generally takes time, and probably longer than the 5 weeks or so between the election and the day the EC votes are cast. But they don’t have 5 weeks. They have the entire election cycle.
The only way it stays in effect is if it has no effect. If it would ever change the outcome of an election, it will be repealed by every state compelled to flip its votes.
Are you certain? I do see the possibility of a state attempting to repeal it after the popular vote going the way they didn’t want and perhaps it would only live for one election cycle. I’m just not sure that every state that could overturn it would want to do so, given that a campaign under a national popular vote would mean that there would be far more attention paid to places outside of Pennsylvania and the select handful of swing states. Both campaigns want to see all of America improve in their speeches, not just the midwest and sunbelt battlegrounds, but their campaign actions aren’t representative of that within the EC.
E: Oh and if the 2028 and/or 2032 election has a result where popular vote and EC are aligned when the compact is first in force, there will be much less momentum to overturn it in the following election even if they differ.
given that a campaign under a national popular vote would mean that there would be far more attention paid to places outside of Pennsylvania and the select handful of swing states.
Under popular vote, candidates will run to the urban centers, and completely ignore the rural populace.
NPVIC creates Panem.
That’s hyperbole, of course, but exaggeration for purposes of demonstration.
There’s no perfect solution, but the fact there will be more campaigning in urban centres is not an indictment of the popular vote system. Rural centers don’t have to be excluded, campaign resources can be more spread out to them than before.
Example: Sure, maybe Trump wouldn’t have visited Butler, PA without EC but they are the few rural areas that would benefit at the expense of small towns in every other state. Instead, you would have Republican outreach to the red states that are perennially overlooked, Trump visiting Redding to get out the vote there, Harris campaign in CO and the PNW. Puerto Rico, US territories and DC would have actual importance instead of the whole discussion being around “what does insulting the entirety of Puerto Rico mean for Pennsylvania?”
Can you honestly tell me that you would support your state casting their EC votes for Trump, even though a majority of your state voted for Harris?
Can you honestly say you expect the citizenry of every state to put the will of the nation ahead of their own? Ahead of their neighbors? I mean, most of these states are already using all sorts of shady methods to keep “undesirable” people from voting. The last president went so far as to attempt a coup, and his supporters loved him for it.
Do you honestly believe they’re going to tolerate their state voting against their professed wishes?
Would you actually tolerate your state going against its own voters?
The best that the NPVIC could possibly accomplish is to allow a simple majority of the Supreme Court the opportunity to appoint the presidential candidate they prefer.
Wasn’t it something like he only gained about 500,000 votes from the last primary election? The reason the Democrats lost was because they lost 10,000,000 due to people just straight up not voting for Kamala by either going 3rd party, switching to Trump, or abstaining. In my opinion it wasn’t really Trump’s popularity that won him the election but more of just the Democrats lack of popularity.
Democrats lack of popularity, coupled with active voter suppression tactics in numerous states, four straight years of misinformation campaigns designed to decrease voter turnout and/or drive them to third parties maliciously, and most critically, no more covid lockdowns allowing people the free time to vote. People working full time wage jobs that are most likely to vote more blue are, quite intentionally, not financially allowed to vote in person due to work scheduling; 2020 was an outlier year.
OR, wait for it, it might be because Democrats absolutely suck at winning elections. It might be because no one likes them. And all that might be because they’re total fucking failures at governing.
“But muh libs have done such wonderful things and the GOP is the devil!”
SELL it to us then.
“But LOGIC!”
No one votes on logic. Sales class, before lunch, “People buy on emotion.”
Your post is exactly why libs so always fucking lose. Jesus, just say it out loud, “We lost because my pussy hurts!”
You should seriously consider running for office. You might have the energy and wherewithal to reshape the liberal party into something halfway worthwhile 🤌
Actually, Harris did nearly as well or better than Biden in the only states that matter, the swing states. In the ones the Harris didn’t beat Biden’s vote total, even if she had gotten it Trump would have still won the electoral college.
In other words, no it’s not because dems didn’t vote.
I mean…. Does it really matter?
Nope.
Some liberals will say that he won’t be able to claim a mandate. Doesn’t matter. He will.
Seriously, how far does that excuse get anyone? “Well everyone didn’t vote for him so whatever” and he says “Yeah they did 🥴” and proceeds to do whatever tf he wants anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It’s still good to know he doesn’t have one, be able to prove it, and say it a lot all over the place with the receipts in hand.
I think this type of thinking is dealing with Trump the wrong way. Censoring him is pointless. He’s going to say what he wants until it isn’t useful and then pivot. He’s going to do what he wants regardless of what he says.
Don’t take him literally. Take him seriously. Defend at the points of real vulnerability. Counter at the right times. Sow discord and distrust in his hapless helpers and incompetent ranks.
Play to win.
None of the news you read on this app matters. This is at least an interesting tidbit.
It won’t matter. He, and his cultists, will continue to claim otherwise.
I mean his vote share went down, he still has more votes than kamala.
So they don’t need to say anything he still won the popular core
Actually only 50% of us support the fat pedophile fascist.
It’s way less than that. Like 35% of eligible voters did not vote.
Only 33% of eligible voters actually voted against Trump. 66% either agree with him or don’t care.
Yup, just 71 million or so goddam people voted for a narcissistic grifter felony with daddy issues. Fuck.
Or 71 million people voted against democrat corruption and the fact that they do not represent the working class.
By voting for blatant corruption instead? And tax cuts for the rich is not a policy representing the working class.
They didn’t say that they were making a good decision voting against Dems, just that it was a decision.
Yes, a bad decision, but that shouldn’t need to be said to anyone with regularly firing neurons.
They voted for disruption. And that’s the one thing trump is good at.
Maybe a percentage of those votes were because of this, but you can’t actually believe that 71 million people voted for him because he somehow represents the working class better than the dems would. The vast majority people who were protesting the dems not representing the working class, did so by not voting or voting 3rd party, not by voting for Trump.
99 percent of those people voted for Trump because of 3 reasons: Racism, Misogyny, or ignorance. There is a fourth group of rich voters who voted for him to line their pockets, but they are a miniscule portion of his votes. This fourth group mostly just invests money to encourage the racist, misogynistic, and ignorant ones to go vote.
You should look into the Trump/AOC voters and their reasons why.
I have read about them, but the crossover between people who voted for Trump and AOC is so small, though. Its nowhere close to the total 71 million who voted for Trump.
Look at their reasons. There is major crossover on reasons why people voted for Trump.
Ah yes, that’s why they did it. I’m sure that’s exactly why they voted for the, as stated previously, narcissistic etcetera etcetera. Get the fuck out of here.
And in not doing so, they objectively supported him, whether they’re too braindead to know or not.
Yeah like those people who voted for the people actively funding a genocide that somehow believe the vote they were casting was for less genocide.
That is an amazing brain trick.
this is my favorite israel palestine talking point, instead of actually doing something about the issue, or like, discussing actual things actually happening, people just bitch and moan about semantics instead.
Who gives a fuck whether or not voting for kamala was a vote for genocide, or whether or not abstaining, and therefore helping trump get elected was also a vote for genocide, go do literally fucking anything for the cause.
I agree with that, but this is a political discussion on a messageboard so that’s what is haplening here. This is what lemmy is for.
i guess so, but i would much rather talk about the things actually happening, and have fruitful discussions with people who have significantly more knowledge about these things than i do. But people would rather just concern troll instead i guess lmao.
You are claiming that Trump automatically wins if nobody votes. That’s objectively not how US elections work. He still has to get the plurality of votes to win. People who do not cast votes don’t automatically support Trump, it just doesn’t sway the election at all. Please stick to the facts and not to the fake news. Election misinformation is not cool.
Yea but he has 100% of the control now so it doesn’t matter unfortunately.
This is major league copium. The fact is that Trump’s opponent got way more votes in 2020 than in 2024, and had the blue turnout in 2024 equaled what it was in 2020, he would not have won in 2024. Period.
Yeah I’m really not sure why these conversations are still going on. It’s painfully clear that Dems lost this election because of voter turnout.
At this point it’s just sad to see the impotent denial of facts of some people. He won the election and the popular vote. End of story.
It sucks that the Dems don’t bother with a recount, even if it’s still the same result. Republicans wanted recounts just about everywhere they could in 2020. Instead they just say “welp, looks like we lost. Here’s the keys to the kingdom.” Do some due diligence and have a damn recount.
The problem is Republicans are heartless, but Democrats are spineless.
Democrats are heartless genocidal freaks, and hardly “spineless” they just don’t care. It’s a party of billionaires. I have no idea how you can unironically believe this ethos that they’re all a bunch of bleeding hearts but are just too scared, quivering in their boots to act but they all mean well… apparently! No, they just never fight for those values you want them to fight for because their party does not represent those values, and pretending they do at this point… I have a bridge to sell you.
I have no idea how you can unironically believe this ethos that they’re all a bunch of bleeding hearts but are just too scared, quivering in their boots to act but they all mean well… apparently
Because that’s what they are, soft-willed bleeding hearts
No, they are not, they are incredibly wealthy millionaires whose campaigns are bought and paid for by billionaires. The Democrat party is actively supporting an ongoing holocaust, an industrial scale genocide and ethnic cleansing of millions of people from their homeland. The idea that these people are all secretly saints who are just too scared to act on it is such a completely ridiculous belief. They do not do moral things because they are not moral. They are not saints. They simply do not represent those values. You elect a party that openly believes X and then claim they don’t do Y because they’re too scared to do it. No, they don’t do Y because they don’t represent Y, they represent X. Democrats are by no means in any way “soft-willed.” Whenever it comes to something they actually believe in, they are very good at rallying the votes to get it passed, such as when they are passing something in favor of the military industrial complex or the Israel lobby.
Those kind of things have to be done in every single district and costs millions of dollars. Unless there’s a probable chance, it’s probably better to save the cash and use it for something that could get results in the future
I do have problems with Democrats simply handing power to fascists that have literally told us that they will end our Republic on day 1… However, at this point, I think recounting at the level you’re talking about would be a waste of time. Even if it changed the results, Republicans wouldn’t accept it.
I agree it’s a waste of time now, but loke the Wednesday or Thursday afternoon election, they should’ve put the wheels in motion.
I saw that Harris’s campaign was fundraising to pay for a recount, is that not the case?
Democrats like losing because they only disagree on Republicans on like 2 issues and their funding is great when Republicans are in power.
The big problem is we all think someone else will solve this issue. All the investigations, congress, and even the public… they did nothing.
Run for office. Start small. Kick them out of the school boards follow their playbook and work bottom up.
This is the way.
That is certainly a possible solution. However I also think a lot of folks simply don’t have the time to commit in addition to their regular jobs and responsibilities. Guess that’s how we wound up with so wealthy people in politics… they got all that free time ⏰ (and they think they know what’s best for everyone else too, perhaps? 🙃)
“If you have the ability to lead you have the obligation to. Because if you don’t you need to consider who will”
He still won the popular vote.
By being less less poplar than he was last election, because the Dems were even less poplar
What do poplar trees have to do with this ?
Their wood is too soft to stand up to the Republicans, the Democrats need something stronger, like oak or maple.
I kinda like the sound of Maplecrat.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what Yew can do for your country!
Soon there will be no more of them
The first line of the summary starts with …
Trump’s popular vote share has fallen
He still has more than Harris. I’m not thrilled about any of this, I just don’t see any sort of significance of being under 50% when we already don’t use the popular vote for anything meaningful. If it drops below Harris’s, then that’s worth talking about.
Very, very slimly.
i think in presidential elections in order to “win” you need at minimum a 51% vote. Otherwise you don’t actually win, but i could be mixing some shit up lol.
Voting is fucking weird.
You can win the presidency with as little as 22% of the popular vote. https://youtu.be/7wC42HgLA4k
is this the electoral college win, or did they “win” the popular vote since they had more of the votes than the opponent.
A genuine real win via the electoral college can happen with as little as 22% of the popular vote.
yeah i believe i said winning the popular vote though.
You asked me an “or” question.
yeah, and it was the wrong answer.
Great! We can relish the fact that he didn’t win over the majority of Americans as our country descends into a fascist hellhole run by billionaires, war hawks and rapists.
now take into account the massive GOP voter fraud
I thought we spent four years exhaustively proving that the election cannot be stolen? How did they find loopholes after the Democrats exhaustively proved they didn’t exist?
It wasn’t that it can’t be stolen. We proved the dems didn’t steal it.
This year we had lots of evidence of fraud and manipulation by Rs and like do you really think Trump and Musk would actually just play fair?
I thought we spent four years exhaustively proving that the election cannot be stolen?
Wrong.
Trump’s team claimed for 4 years that the election was stolen without evidence. We’ve spent 4 years showing that the 2020 election was not stolen, which does not mean that election fraud doesn’t exist and never will exist.
The biggest problem with the letters that went around is that it would require every swing state Secretary of State to stay quiet about it happening. And some of those SoS’s are die hard democracy and election people. It would also require the IT people not to leak any concerns and they aren’t known for staying quiet about systems being penetrated.
All in all it seems like a weird thing happened but the silence is verging on Secret Government Agency with millions of domestic spies that never write a tell all book conspiracy territory.
so… are we hearing any of that now?
I haven’t seen anything. I know Arizona for sure would be all over it. Their last three SoS elections were about keeping Maga out of the elections. The current governor is governor largely for standing up to Trump in 2020. If they thought they got hacked they would be using bullhorns to let us know.
What about the starling machines
I couldn’t find anything about voting machines named Starling. There is a StarLink theory. The problem is that seems to be based on a TikTok video that was incoherent by most reports, and is no longer up.
I get that moneyed interests could get evidence removed from a centralized social media service. But nothing in the transcript I’ve found describes a specific link from StarLink to voting machines. In fact it sounds like the person just described the basics of TCP/IP in a roundabout way to make it sound sinister. The problem is election systems are air gapped with the exception of a few highly controlled access points. Situations where that’s been compromised, (such as allowing remote work from home for election office workers) have made the news for precisely the reason that it’s rare. And the most credible criticism of election security is that the election office’s computers could be compromised and used to spread malware to machines. But that’s an inherent weakness. If the office can’t access the results, they can’t report them.
Furthermore, there’s nothing special about StarLink that would make them a better access route. They aren’t close enough to intercept the unofficial results as a false cellphone tower, (and that wouldn’t change the official results later anyways), and any traffic going through them to attack election systems would also have to travel through modems on the ground, controlled by election officials. So destroying the satellite does nothing for covering your tracks. If you believe they can erase all traces of their traffic, then there’s no need to destroy a satellite as surely that would be even easier on a satellite controlled by a close ally.
At the end of the day, with what we know right now, the fuck up was with the Democrat’s messaging. Not anything to do with election security.
the only two significant things i’ve heard, one is pretty much confirmed.
republicans had access illegally to source code for dominion voting machines (we know this because people were charged over it) this is also the contents of the “letter to VP harris” thing that was released a minute ago. Though it doesn’t claim fraud or anything of the nature, just calls for a recount, and establishing that no foul play happened.
The second, and one i haven’t dug into at all, so take this at face value, is that apparently, there may have been a very large number of “bullet ballots” or ballots just voting for trump, in AZ i think. I don’t know the status of this one. Even if it’s true, it doesn’t explicitly mean voter fraud happened. It may be a tad bit suspect though.
Those are the only two theories i’ve heard that have weight, granted i’m not following election conspiracies, because i’m a normal sane person.
Realistically the most likely “fraud” was elon musk buying twitter.
I thought we spent four years exhaustively proving that the election cannot be stolen
Um, hate to tell you bro, trump did cheat and steal the 2016 election (proven in court, 34 counts convicted)
“Cannot”? How does one prove a negative?
At no time in the history of modern politics has the “popular vote” taken precedence over the electoral college. If you’ll remember, biden’s campaign made that point during his defeat of the orange 4 years ago. And the orange complained pretty loudly about it
Not to mention the numbers I saw still show he has more votes than her, he just fell below 50%, add in the people who voted for other candidates or voted for other positions and not president and she is below. I saw only 4% of votes left in California, meaning he will beat her by at least a million votes.
At no time in the history of modern politics has the “popular vote” taken precedence over the electoral college.
Everybody already knows that. It sill matters. Or would matter, if Harris had gotten more total votes.
