Vote for Biden, then have your revolution. Then please stop with your weird imperialism, close pinegap and please tell us what actually happened to Gough.
Pine Gap closing would be tantamount to a declaration of war on the USA. Never going to happen.
That’s US territory for all intents and purposes.
Rationale people:
If Biden compromised with progressives it would guarantee a victory over trump…
“Moderates”:
Fuck you fascist, you’re worse than trump!
Yet when Biden gives Republicans everything they want like with the border, suddenly it’s justified because some Republican voter somewhere has a 1% chance of voting D for the first time in their life.
Just weird how it works definitely
To all the Biden defenders: I get it. You’re scared of another Trump term. I’m living in Europe and I’m not a fan of project 2025 myself. I have this seemingly simple question: what happens after the election?
If Biden wins, what do you expect to happen with all the MAGAs? How would you prevent another Jan 6th? What if it succeeded this time? How will you keep Biden accountable? Will you keep avoiding a fascist dictatorship every 4 years until the end of time?
And if Trump wins? Will you give up without a fight? Will you let them turn the US into a fascist theocracy?
Don’t expect that your liberal democracy will sort itself out. There’s too much on the line to hope for the correct election results and everythingsorting itself out afterwards. Have a plan that doesn’t rely on elections and take the safety of your community into your own hands.
Well, some of us actually realize there’s this whole legislative branch that exists, and often has a lot more power than the executive to accomplish things. Shockingly enough, when you don’t have a monolithic view of things, you have an actual chance of changing them.
I really shouldn’t even have to go over this- we LIVED it already.
No, that’s not true. In fact, that’s incredible, delusional cope. What we lived already was nothing compared to what a term-limited Trump with nothing to lose backed by a fully-formed Project 2025 administration would be like.
Sounds like dems should do more to get progressives, if the stakes are so high.
If the stakes are so high??
What is it with people who don’t live in the US constantly shitting in these threads.
Are the stakes high or not? Because Democrats are not acting like it enough to concede to progressives.
It is irresponsible to alienate progressives right now.
Which is it?
It’s also irresponsible to think of it only as democrats and republicans. It’s also irresponsible to doompost and naysay any positive action because it’s not perfect. It’s also irresponsible to act as though you stand on a moral high ground when all you can do is turn up your nose and say “not good enough”.
That is not an answer. Do Democrats need progressives enough to concede on issues?
Yes or No? Thats the reality we face, like it or not.
Are you willing to let Trump win if the answer is no?
That’s the reality we face, like it or not.
So nobody will answer. Got it.
It sure seems like the non-progressives have taken their ball and went home. Some allies.
There’s not this giant silent majority of Leftist voters. Most voters, especially in swing states, are independents / undecideds. You guys are so insular you think that everyone is like you. Dems aren’t pandering to you because there’s not a lot of you and most of you are too fickle to vote anyway.
And half of you are fucking outside agitators for whom no concession would be enough because the entire point is bashing Biden.
The only problem is when you people, whether paid trolls or useful idiots, manage to start swaying the mass of politically uninformed citizens to do stupid things.
Trying to give you people what you want is a fool’s errand, because it’s never enough. You have never given Biden credit for anything he’s done. Nothing is ever a victory, because every victory is met with “that’s not good enough”. You’ll never see establishment Dems support you because you’ve shown you’ll never support establishment Dems. The alternative for establishment dems is to convince uninformed voters to ignore you.
So what you’re saying is no, Democrats don’t need progressives.
Is that what you’re saying? It’s funny how I posit effectively a yes or no question and nobody can give a yes or no answer. You’re the fourth person in this one comment chain who hasnt said whether Democrats need progressives to win or not to make concessions.
Yes… or No?
Fair, but to their point, we know how it’ll play out - the press will fall in line, the sycophants will queue up, everyone will pretend this is fine, and absolute chaos will be the order of the day. That we’ve already lived before.
I don’t give a shit about the press or the sycophants! The issue is what the fascists will actually do, not how they will be perceived. And what they’re going to do is shit like this (from another Lemmy post today – I didn’t even have to look far to find it):
We’re talking about purges, pogroms, gulags, maybe even mass-murder of leftists and minorities. That’s not an “everyone will pretend this is fine” issue; that’s an “everyone will be literally imprisoned or dead issue!”
Yes, and when that doesn’t happen, all the people who were expecting the apocalypse to happen (like they did with the last Trump presidency) will neglect to show up for the next election… again.
The fanatics and sycophants (like the one you literally posted) are a distraction from all the people actually making changes in background. The people appointing judges, the people capturing regulation for their own ends.
People talk about how we’ll all be lined up and shot if we lose the presidency to Trump… but that’s not how these people work. It has never been how these people work. 99% of what they do is pander to their base with wild claims of what they’re going to do to the “woke-crowd” and the “socialists”. Then when they get into office they block any kind of effective legislation and blame the left and the neo-liberals for standing in the way of “America”.
Fascism in this country won’t happen with a shotgun blast, it will happen with a shiv in the dark.
“Just keep voting Whig” moment.
Or, get super fucked. I mean. Those are literally the choices.
“If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice”
Officially pro-slavery and officially no stance on slavery were literally the choices.
Until they weren’t.
The Whigs made up and influenced much of the newly formed Republican Party but the absolute inability of the Whigs to take a stance on the slavery question caused them to collapse and a new party with an actual stance on slavery take its place.
Okay, so when the Democratic Party collapses and a new party that actually has progressive policies takes its place, we’ll stop voting for Democrats.
But that hasn’t happened yet, and shows zero signs of doing so.
A party that collapses is one people don’t keep voting for. So we will see if the Democratic Party will collapse before changing policies.
Not voting is a sure fire way to have your voice ignored.
“You want change but you’re not going to vote towards making it happen because it doesn’t happen already? Why the fuck do you think things aren’t changing for the better‽”
Voting is so fuckin important, especially in local elections. Local politics bleeds into county politics, which bleeds into state politics which bleeds into country politics.
It all starts locally.
You want bike lanes in your city? Vote.
You want better funding in your schools? Vote.
You want more affordable housing in your area? Vote.
Vote in every election. No exceptions.
Hi there, as a Seattle local I have a legitimate question for you. The local democrats I voted for turned around and gerrymandered the socialist 3 term serving city council member out of office. The only member that was actually pushing for the working class politics I wanted from my district representative. What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
Edit: laughing at these down votes, yall are deeply unseriouse people.
Unfortunately gerrymandering is a flaw in the democratic process. At least in the US, the Voting Rights Act makes it so political parties cannot redraw districts to decrease the political influence of racial or ethnic groups. It says nothing about other political parties, so whichever party is in power when voting lines need to be redrawn will inevitably try to redraw the lines in their favor. Until that sort of gerrymandering is outlawed, it will continue to happen. The party in power isn’t going to make it fair for their competition out of the kindness of their heart.
Right but none of what you said answers the question: What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
When true change is threatened it is dealt with in two ways, recuperation or rejection. Anything else is not change that threatens the systems of power and is allowed to be squabbled over.
Talk politics with people in your area, get to know people IRL, show up to city council things, do the leg work when you can. Again local elections happen locally with the people in your locality.
The incremental change that is had in this situation is not having the GQP win. Yeah the maps got redrawn in a way you don’t like this time but don’t stop fighting for what you see is right.
When you stop fighting the people you fight against will be able to steam roll through.
What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
It’s literally not how the party at large operates. As you said, it was your local city council. Why do you think the entire party is like this?
And the answer is, vote them out. If it’s bad enough, impeach them. There’s no way in our current configuration of democracy to prevent candidates from turning around and going back on their promises other than refusing to vote for them ever again.
You already know the answer, and it’s not “throw your hands up and abandon the whole system of democracy”.
You’re not paying attention. This is a huge problem with liberal voters, they are highly engaged when opposition is in power, yet completely oblivious while “their party” is in charge. Or somehow worse, they will decry obvious issues as helping the opposition (as we see in this thread) so that the needle only ever shifts slightly to the right as the party appeals to “moderates”.
I’m paying plenty of attention. I know Republicans have been using gerrymandering to have an outsize impact for decades. I know Democrats recently decided to stoop to their level rather than continuously taking the high road and losing because of it. I know that no sane person would decide to stop supporting the Democrats because of this tactic.
I suspect you’re not being genuine here.
Gerrymandering has been apart of American politics since the country’s founding, before the concept was even given a name in 1812. When the parties weren’t polarized from 1964–1992 there wasn’t a need for drastic gerrymandering like we see currently, but it still happened from both parties to secure incumbent power. It’s why it was never legislated against, both parties prefer to keep it around as it is yet another method of keeping the broken two party system in place.
I’m being genuine, authentic, and fucking real with you. Both parties are shit and we deserve better. Democrats will never truly save you from the looming threat of Republicans because they are two sides to the same imperialist coin.
FYI I downvoted you because you whined about your downvotes. Just thought you should know.
Next time vote for someone else. Local races are where “vote blue, no matter who” means the least. They’re the most likely place to see progressive change. If you saw unfortunate result because you put a check mark next to a D and expected something miraculous to happen, maybe you should start looking into the candidates instead of their party more often.
But, most of all. Don’t expect everyone to think the same way you do. Often they will have different ideas of what progress is. Sometimes that means you’ll see a step to the center, even if it’s a step forward. Don’t be disheartened just because you didn’t get everything you wanted this time, and show up again. And again. And again. Because the only way progress will stall is if you stop showing up.
To a lot of progressives, Democrats are backsliding away from progressivism, not moving slowly towards it. If they need progressives to win, they sure arent acting like it.
Get involved in politics and participate like hell
Influence your local elections to the best of your abilities and encourage others to do the same
The more stuff that can be done by getting people to act in a progressive way the more they’ll be steered in that direction
And hell you could even try running in your local elections too, you’d be surprised how simple it can be in a lot of places
I’m seeing people in this very thread being hesitant to admit that Democrats should probably court progressives for a victory.
A lot of people, even here on Lemmy, which is supposed to be quite left leaning, would rather Trump win than throw progressives a bone.
Perhaps I’m just reading into this too much, but it seems like Democrats are being actively hostile against progressives right now. How are we supposed to change things if they are being outright hostile towards progressivism?
This is the uphill battle that Democrats are going to have to face. You can’t continuously alienate your voter base and then expect positive results. The base factually is already alienated. The question is, what will Democrats do to win them back? Is it too late? The clock is ticking And I don’t think the Democrats are learning the correct lesson.
This next national election is simple: do you want 4 more years of Trump or not?
No: Vote for Joe Biden.
Yes: Vote for Trump, vote third party, or abstain.
The republicans are a minority now and are trying everything to win the electoral college despite their minority status. They will LOVE you to not vote because of Biden’s stance on __________.
So make your choice.
So why won’t Biden move to the left again?
It’s like that’s never mentioned as an option these days, but isn’t it easier to convince one person to compromise than tens of millions of people?
Because he is right wing and the current system is working in his favor.
The worst thing that could happen to the democrats is a competent opponent. They need trump in order to win so post election you’re so burned up from worrying about hard fascism you become more docile towards the shit were left with.
This is, i believe, why some rich fuckers donate to both sides. They cant purchase a president but they can purchase a party nominee and by making one of two choices completely unacceptable we are forced to take the alternative.
It’s crazy to me that voting is the only political involvement for so many people.
We’re in the middle of a cycle, this is the time to be really loud about what you’d like to see reflected in your party’s policy, but instead everyone has skipped to the end, having relieved themselves of all the hard work of political engagement.
He’d probably convict biden and fine him 1.5 billion dollars. Maybe.
